British Championships Chess Coaching

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Krishna Shiatis
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Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by Krishna Shiatis » Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:53 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:
Krishna Shiatis wrote:ECF Accredited coaches - does this really give parents peace of mind that a coach is good for their child/nice/kind?

I only ask because I do know a couple of people on the list who are horrible.

As a parent, the most important thing to me apart from my own personal experiences, is to have recommendation from another who I know and trust.

If somebody said to me 'I am ECF accredited'. That would mean nothing to me.

I would expect CRB as a basic, but again, we all know, that is not really a perfect way of sifting out any potentially 'bad' people.

So far, Sabrina has made excellent choices with her team and she has coached many children I know, well - that means a lot more to me than anything else.
Of course you can choose to do what you think is best. I know there are people out there with a driving licence that drive badly, but I still expect them to have a driving licence and insurance if they are on the road, and I wouldn't get into a car with them if I had a choice.

'I am ECF accredited' does not mean 'I am faultless and you and your children will like me', but it does mean that a certain standard has been met.
I think you are not looking at what I said. I did not say that an ECF accreditation means that a coach is 'faultless and will be liked'. That would be impossible to divine in any circumstance not to mention impossible to do.

My actual question was:

ECF Accredited coaches - does this really give parents peace of mind that a coach is good for their child/nice/kind?

The ECF accreditation does not really tell you much about a coach. I do agree that it gives you 'a basic standard', but what does that standard mean if horrible people are on the list?

What then do parents look at? How do they make a choice? What becomes important to them?

Parents do what they have always done. They talk to other parents, take personal recommendations, apply common sense and make their decisions as best as they can.
Last edited by Krishna Shiatis on Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Adam Raoof
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Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by Adam Raoof » Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:56 pm

LozCooper wrote:
Adam Raoof wrote:
'I am ECF accredited' does not mean 'I am faultless and you and your children will like me', but it does mean that a certain standard has been met.
I will be happy to provide a reference to Sabrina, Jovanka and Keith (as I have done previously) as I have witnessed all of them coaching and if it speeds up the ECF red tape then I will be glad to have assisted.
It's not a question of a reference. I shouldn't have to explain this, but anyone who is hoping to be a coach, and in contact with children and possibly vulnerable adults, needs to have a CRB check and being an accredited coach is the standard that they have to meet to coach at the British.

Krishna, I respect your view whilst not agreeing with you. If you like someone and ask them to coach your child, and they don't have accredited status or at least a CRB check, I hope you would ask why.
Last edited by Adam Raoof on Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

andrew martin

Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by andrew martin » Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:57 pm

I reiterate, I am in Sheffield for two weeks and instead of posting here, come and see me. Differences can be resolved much easier face to face, as it does away with all the dirty backbiting behind the scenes.

Krishna Shiatis
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Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by Krishna Shiatis » Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:00 pm

andrew martin wrote:I reiterate, I am in Sheffield for two weeks and instead of posting here, come and see me. Differences can be resolved much easier face to face, as it does away with all the dirty backbiting behind the scenes.
Andrew,

Who are you talking to?

Krishna Shiatis
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Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by Krishna Shiatis » Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:09 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:
LozCooper wrote:
Adam Raoof wrote:
'I am ECF accredited' does not mean 'I am faultless and you and your children will like me', but it does mean that a certain standard has been met.
I will be happy to provide a reference to Sabrina, Jovanka and Keith (as I have done previously) as I have witnessed all of them coaching and if it speeds up the ECF red tape then I will be glad to have assisted.
It's not a question of a reference. I shouldn't have to explain this, but anyone who is hoping to be a coach, and in contact with children and possibly vulnerable adults, needs to have a CRB check and being an accredited coach is the standard that they have to meet to coach at the British.

Krishna, I respect your view whilst not agreeing with you. If you like someone and ask them to coach your child, and they don't have accredited status or at least a CRB check, I hope you would ask why.
Adam,

Thank you for respecting my view. I too, respect your view, whilst not agreeing with it.

We are tres, tres civilised, n'est ce pas?

I do now have some lovely people coaching my children, thank you. I have my own personal check list which I use to decide whether or not somebody comes into contact with my child. It is very important to me that the right people (in every way) support and encourage my children.

Like I said, CRB is essential, but ECF accreditation means nothing to me. I will always continue to vet anybody who comes into contact with my children very carefully.

Thank you for responding,

Best wishes, Krishna
Last edited by Krishna Shiatis on Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

andrew martin

Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by andrew martin » Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:12 pm

Krishna, I guess if nobody has any problems with the situations discussed on the thread, then nobody will come to see me.

English chess will move on. hopefully in the right direction.

Jon D'Souza-Eva

Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by Jon D'Souza-Eva » Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:16 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:I heard today that the ECF are now accepting third party CRB checks. I don't know if this is actually true or not but this is not recommended (see here) as it is open to abuse and fraud.
Have you ever heard of a case of someone having a fraudulent CRB certificate? I haven't, and it seems eminently sensible to me that institutions accept CRB checks from elsewhere. Sabrina has now shattered the record for the most CRB checks of any individual that I know of, but I know lots of people who have three certificates.

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Adam Raoof
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Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by Adam Raoof » Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:28 pm

ECF Accredited Coaches have fulfilled the following requirements:

1) They hold an Enhanced CRB Clearance, which is less than three years old.
2) They have supplied two professional character references to the satisfaction of the ECF.
3) They have supplied the Manager of Coaching with details of previous coaching or teaching experience.
4) They are a current ECF member (should be true of all FIDE rated ENG players)

These requirements seem reasonable enough to me.

andrew martin

Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by andrew martin » Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:38 pm

Moreover, if the CRB of an Accredited Coach expires, they get reminded of this by the office, in some cases several times.

Then, if the new CRB details are not sent to the Office as requested, they get taken off the list.

John Upham
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Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by John Upham » Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:44 pm

In order to maintain http://www.ecfcoaching.org.uk/ I receive regular updates from the ECF Office of new coaches to be added and coaches to be removed.

I am not informed (and correctly so) of the reason(s) for removal.

I normally turn around these requests within the same working day if not hour!

The ECF Coaching site also lists the ECF Centres of Excellence which are not listed on http://www.englishchess.org.uk/
British Chess News : britishchessnews.com
Twitter: @BritishChess
Facebook: facebook.com/groups/britishchess :D

Krishna Shiatis
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Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by Krishna Shiatis » Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:46 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:ECF Accredited Coaches have fulfilled the following requirements:

1) They hold an Enhanced CRB Clearance, which is less than three years old.
2) They have supplied two professional character references to the satisfaction of the ECF.
3) They have supplied the Manager of Coaching with details of previous coaching or teaching experience.
4) They are a current ECF member (should be true of all FIDE rated ENG players)

These requirements seem reasonable enough to me.
Reasonable? - yes.

Meaningful? - IMO - no.

Does this give parents piece of mind that the coach is good for their child/nice/kind?

Not really.

Should it be used to stop Sabrina in her tracks?

I do not think it should. She has the CRBs and track record. She has the confidence of all around her. Common sense has to come into play here. Surely?

As I said before, if you are worried about legal implications, a carefully worded statement would solve much.

LozCooper

Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by LozCooper » Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:47 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:
'It's not a question of a reference. I shouldn't have to explain this, but anyone who is hoping to be a coach, and in contact with children and possibly vulnerable adults, needs to have a CRB check and being an accredited coach is the standard that they have to meet to coach at the British.
Sabrina and Jovanka both have CRB clearance but they are not listed as ECF accredited coaches. When I became an ECF accredited coach I was asked to provide a reference. As both women have CRB clearance can you advise why they are not listed as ECF accredited coaches? I hope, as their director within the ECF, you will be as keen as me to have this matter resolved.

andrew martin

Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by andrew martin » Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:52 pm

As far as I can see all Sabrina, Jovanka and Keith need to do is send their CRB details to the office along with references as detailed above and I'd be happy to put them all on the list; no problem whatsoever.

In fact, it could easily be done before going to Sheffield.

Sabrina Chevannes
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Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by Sabrina Chevannes » Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:51 pm

So I have to go through this tedious process all over again? Does my original certificate saying I am an accredited coach mean nothing at all? It seem to me that everyone who respects me and trusts me are the parents and the players and I reiterate - they are the important ones. It seems that the only ones who are bothered by this all are the officials of the ECF, who should be the ones who are trying to encourage juniors to get the best they can in order to improve.

I don't think that any of my students care if my name appears on the list of ECF Accredited Coaches, but they care whether I help them learn and keep them interested in the game and make it enjoyable. As far as I'm concerned, if I have done that, I have been successful. I know that I have done all those necessary checks and if my name doesn't appear on the site, then so be it - I won't let it stop me doing the best I can for my students.

I agree with Krishna about some of the coaches on the list. I would never let them anywhere near my students let alone if they were my own children! I know previous accredited coaches who have turned out to be erm I don't know if I feel comfortable saying the word on here, but "not very nice people" so does it really prove anything? I mean, you guys accept references, but you don't actually follow them up. Anyone could have written them. Have you seen each coach actually teach? No. This is the only way I accept people as coaches, seeing them do it with my own eyes. I personally think that with Jovanka, Keith, Adam, Harriet and the other coaches that work with me on my team, I would go as far as to say I have the best coaching team in the country :)

I have wasted enough time and energy trying to defend all the silliness and I have now wasted anoter £600 hiring a meeting room in Sheffield just so all the nit pickers don't complain I am using the analysis room which is really ridiculous by the way, so I don't really want to go on about this CRB topic all over again. I will bring a current CRB to SHeffield should anyone want to see it, plus my ECF Accredited Coach Certificate.

Now I have to go prepare some material for my students and go through their games in preparation for the British - a STANDARD that I think should be in place if anyone is to coach. Not just turn up at the event not having any prior knowledge of the students games and just winging it. Pre-prepared databases need to be done. But that's the CCA standard and not the ECF's.

Mick Norris
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Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by Mick Norris » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:16 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:ECF Accredited Coaches have fulfilled the following requirements:

1) They hold an Enhanced CRB Clearance, which is less than three years old.
2) They have supplied two professional character references to the satisfaction of the ECF.
3) They have supplied the Manager of Coaching with details of previous coaching or teaching experience.
4) They are a current ECF member (should be true of all FIDE rated ENG players)

These requirements seem reasonable enough to me.
Reasonable - yes

The ECF website notes:
Responsibility for the training of arbiters in England has been assumed by the Chess Arbiters’ Association (CAA). To become an ECF Arbiter an applicant must:

1. Pass a formal test (the syllabus of which will be set by the CAA);
2. Gain practical experience and work to the satisfaction of at least two ECF Arbiters, one of whom must be an ECF Senior Arbiter.

It seems to me that is more stringent than the coaches have to go through - have you thought about increasing the requirements for coaches?
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

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