Telegraph report about Austria

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Jonathan Bryant
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Telegraph report about Austria

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:37 am

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/ches ... ayers.html


(Link posted after consultation with Carl)

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Telegraph report about Austria

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:48 am


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Ben Purton
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Re: Telegraph report about Austria

Post by Ben Purton » Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:16 am

Dislike the above really, the search for publicity is interesting.
I find the spitting thing extremely interesting from a sociological prospective. In the Middle East and Asia, even parts of Eastern Europe it is seen as a thing to show severe hated/discontent but I have rarely seen it used in Britain, perhaps if I watched the Jeremy Kyle show this might change.
It is a bit like biting ones thumb , which is popular still in parts of the world and I believe is quoted in Shakespeare at points but has anyone ever seen that here?

What I think is the worst part of the above articles, is that on Indy, they have named ECF officals , to me if your going to do that on one view then that is disgraceful as it will be on the internet indefinitely and therefore people are tarnished with this for a long time on one guys word.
I love sleep, I need 8 hours a day and about 10 at night - Bill Hicks
I would die happy if I beat Wood Green in the Eastman Cup final - Richmond LL captain.
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Matthew Turner
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Re: Telegraph report about Austria

Post by Matthew Turner » Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:24 am

I think it is worth reading this website
http://mswithacause.blogspot.co.uk/2012 ... st-by.html

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: Telegraph report about Austria

Post by Carl Hibbard » Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:49 am

This is being pushed and pushed hard by someone, I agree a photo of the so called guilty is out of order as is comments like "sunk her claws" from one of the papers
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Andrew Camp
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Re: Telegraph report about Austria

Post by Andrew Camp » Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:02 am

Photographer: Look sad for the picture, boys.
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Alex McFarlane
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Re: Telegraph report about Austria

Post by Alex McFarlane » Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:16 am

Without going into the rights or wrongs of this case which are clearly unknown to most people, it does highlight one issue. The ECF does not have an effective way in which any complaint can be investigated. There is comment that Phil Ehr should not be investigating this because of his position and initial action. Again I do not know the accuracy of these statements but one thing is sure and that is that Phil is being put in an unenviable position. I have been saying for a considerable time (before last year's events) that the ECF needed some structure in place. The proposed measures to be discussed at the AGM, in my view, are unsatisfactory because they are not clearly independent.

It would probably be of more good to the ECF if that document was discussed and amendments suggested.

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: Telegraph report about Austria

Post by Carl Hibbard » Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:25 am

A slightly dismissive well 'families fell out' will probably not close it off will it?
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Sean Hewitt
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Re: Telegraph report about Austria

Post by Sean Hewitt » Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:34 am

I note that it's reported that, for different reasons, police in Austria and in UK have not been prepared to take the complaints forward.

David Sedgwick
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Re: Telegraph report about Austria

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:52 am

Alex McFarlane wrote:Without going into the rights or wrongs of this case which are clearly unknown to most people, it does highlight one issue. The ECF does not have an effective way in which any complaint can be investigated. There is comment that Phil Ehr should not be investigating this because of his position and initial action. Again I do not know the accuracy of these statements but one thing is sure and that is that Phil is being put in an unenviable position. I have been saying for a considerable time (before last year's events) that the ECF needed some structure in place. The proposed measures to be discussed at the AGM, in my view, are unsatisfactory because they are not clearly independent.

It would probably be of more good to the ECF if that document was discussed and amendments suggested.
Let me start the ball rolling with the last sentence of your first paragraph.

We used to have a supposedly independent process in Surrey. This gave rise to two problems. Firstly, when one club or organiser complained about another, there was a lack of demonstrably independent people (not surprising, in the close knit world of chess administration). Secondly, the elected officers were potentially legally responsible for the decisions of the independent body but had no control over them. (This was before we incorporated as a Company Limited by Guarantee.)

Moreover, the processes in Chess Scotland aren't exactly generating sweetness and light north of the border, are they? I would be tempted to provide a link to the 11 page thread to which I allude, were in not for the fact that the moderators have just deleted it.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Telegraph report about Austria

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:03 am

Alex McFarlane wrote:Without going into the rights or wrongs of this case which are clearly unknown to most people, it does highlight one issue. The ECF does not have an effective way in which any complaint can be investigated.
To be fair, many volunteer organisations suffer from this. I know from other volunteer organisations that it can be difficult to get professional-level complaint handling in place or carried out effectively. First you have to have something suitable documented, and then you have to have volunteers able to (in their spare time, remember) carry out those procedures. Compare it to a workplace situation, where you will have a professional human resources person who is paid and trained to handle such issues. When you work with volunteer organisations, you sometimes have to accept that things operate at a less efficient level. It may not be acceptable, but in practice it may be what happens.

The other thing is that in a professional environment, people are able to and willing to allocate the appropriate amount of time to resolving something, and can be compelled in various ways to respond and be sanctioned or vindicated. In volunteer organisations, that tends to break down as when a volunteer is put under pressure to deliver, the response can often be to back away and start to wash their hands of the whole thing, saying they didn't sign up for dealing with lengthy intractable disputes and writing long reports that may or may not achieve anything. Also, in volunteer organisations, one side of the issue may spend large amounts of time on the issue (being willing to devote lots of their spare time to it), while the other side may be unable to devote as much time (not having the spare time available), or may chose to ignore it completely. To go back to the workplace analogy, if the issue was one affecting paid employment, those involved would be less likely to ignore it.

None of this relates to the topic of this thread (which I don't intend to comment on until there have been more official statements or reports rather than just news stories or blogs) - I'm responding more on the general point (though David's reference to the deletion of an 11-page thread on a Chess Scotland issue sounds interesting).

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Ben Purton
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Re: Telegraph report about Austria

Post by Ben Purton » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:15 am

To be fair in Austria surely the bar is set a bit higher regarding parental disputes?

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I would die happy if I beat Wood Green in the Eastman Cup final - Richmond LL captain.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Telegraph report about Austria

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:22 am

Christopher Kreuzer wrote: I'm responding more on the general point (though David's reference to the deletion of an 11-page thread on a Chess Scotland issue sounds interesting).
It's actual of peripheral relevance to issues involving junior squads. For reasons I fail to comprehend, probably because I haven't tried, there's a motion that the Chess Scotland website should NOT list details of events where they propose sending junior squads and that Chess Scotland should NOT ask potential invitees to declare availability in advance of selection discussions. This created the 11 page thread mentioned. There seems also to be bickering between parents involved.

Alex McFarlane
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Re: Telegraph report about Austria

Post by Alex McFarlane » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:29 am

David refers to a deleted post on the CS website. Most of it had nothing to do with the Standards Committee. It was about a motion put to the AGM. Whilst the Standards Committee was mentioned on a number of occasions, as far as I am aware, there was no complaint made to it about the motion. There were some personal insults exchanged as can occur on a forum where feelings run high.

Chris correctly states that volunteer run organisations can find it difficult to deal with complaints. This is certainly the case, but English chess seems to specialise in long running disputes. At least if there was a formal process in place disputes would be less polarised. Indeed there may even be fewer problems because people might realise that they would be judged independently and not by friends and colleagues and therefore moderate their behaviour.

Angus McDonald
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Re: Telegraph report about Austria

Post by Angus McDonald » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:51 am

No Comparison here with Scotland.

My issues with Chess Scotland are mainly about democracy.

i.e. The CEO of Chess Scotland moderates that forum and if you make any criticisms based on fact or logical observations you eventually get blocked and your comments called personal abuse. There are though different standards for some than others. Directors or former directors tend to get away with more than members of Chess Scotland.

Since it was raised :)

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