Telegraph report about Austria

[John Swain]

It is interesting to note that the ECF statement of its findings into this matter only seems to have found its way into one of the three leading newspapers which carried the initial story, The Telegraph. On the other hand, the Daily Mail and The Independent seem to have decided to ignore it altogether (I'm presuming that they have all been sent a copy of the statement by the ECF).

[David Sedgwick]

It is interesting to note that the ECF statement of its findings into this matter only seems to have found its way into one of the three leading newspapers which carried the initial story, The Telegraph. On the other hand, the Daily Mail and The Independent seem to have decided to ignore it altogether (I'm presuming that they have all been sent a copy of the statement by the ECF).

The Independent reported the statement in its online edition. I think that was mentioned earlier in this thread.

[Jonathan Bryant]

It is interesting to note that the ECF statement of its findings into this matter only seems to have found its way into one of the three leading newspapers which carried the initial story, The Telegraph. On the other hand, the Daily Mail and The Independent seem to have decided to ignore it altogether (I'm presuming that they have all been sent a copy of the statement by the ECF).

The Independent reported the statement in its online edition. I think that was mentioned earlier in this thread.

That's right, they updated their original article, rather than publish a new one (as the Telegraph did).

[John Swain]

Thanks for the correction about the online edition of The Independent. Those who read The Independent in the old fashioned way have therefore not been able to see the ECF's findings.

[John Swain]

I see that the Daily Mail has also updated its online edition in the light of the ECF statement, like The Independent, but in contrast to The Telegraph which produced a second article thereby disseminating the ECF's findings to a much wider audience.

[Andrew Zigmond]

At the risk of being pithy it seems to have taken us ten pages to decide that there are possible repercussions whatever happened but that we don't really know anything at this stage. One thing that is certain is that the more this is allowed to grow (it's already hit the national press) and the more pressure there is from the uninformed for something to be done about it, the heavier the police response will be. This forum has quite a wide readership and any ambitious journalist seeking to paint a picture of an institutionally racist chess scene might well comb this page for something to quote out of context.

The supposed post from Loz Cooper seemed strange to me and now Alex has drawn attention to that as a hoax I think the ECF needs to make that clear on their statement. Whoever posted that obviously had a) a deep intent to cause mischief and b) enough knowledge of the ECF to pose as the right person. The ECF could do a lot worse than see if they can trace this individual.

[Roger de Coverly]

Meanwhile, There's nothing gentle about indoor games

There was a well known figure in British chess who suggested the board game "Diplomacy" as an alternative to involvement in the ECF if you wished to indulge in back stabbing and reneging on agreements with a better rule set.

He's probably very good at the board game.

[Rob Thompson]

There was a well known figure in British chess who suggested the board game "Diplomacy" as an alternative to involvement in the ECF if you wished to indulge in back stabbing and reneging on agreements with a better rule set.

I fully support this idea.

[John Cox]

It seems to me that it's taken you ten pages to skirt round rather a lot of obvious elephants in the corner of the room, and that Mr Rahman is being paid a great deal too much respect.

Of course we don't know the full events in Austria, but we do have what (I assume, anyway) is Mr Rahman's own account in various places and it's possible to say quite a lot on the basis of that.

First, I don't see that there's any duty whatsoever on the ECF to ensure that halal food is available: if people want their children to eat only meat slaughtered according to some particular medieval ritual then I think it's incumbent on them to take steps to organise that themselves.

Second, if you wake your children up at 5.30 am during a chess tournament and then don't feed them during the day, they're going to be tired and hungry, they're probably not going to play very well, and they're probably not going to behave very well either. It seems to me that in deciding which children to take on these expeditions in future this is probably something that should be borne in mind.

Third, coaches at these events work a twelve-hour day or more and by the time dinner rolls round they're normally ready for a drink with it, and given that the party will usually eat all together, pious tosh about teachers not drinking in front of children is just that, especially since the other parents can hardly be expected not to drink with dinner to accommodate one family. If you want to bring your children up in such a way that they never see adults drinking alcohol then that's your problem, not the coaches.

Fourth, I don't see that the ECF can conceivably do anything useful when a parent says to them midway through a tournament that she fears for the safety of herself and her children at the hands of other children's parents. I certainly don't see that the ECF has any duty of care - if the mother truly believes they're in danger, then she can take the children home herself.

Fifth, anyone who runs to the national press and to various Muslim pressure groups with this kind of story before even receiving the ECF's report forfeits all respect, especially in the ludicrous terms in which Mr Rahman has done.

Sixth, if my child were the victim of the sort of trivial 'assault' alleged here, the first question I'd ask them is 'why did this adult want to stop you going into the tournament room?', and I wouldn't stop until I'd got an answer. I certainly wouldn't be rushing to the police, and let's be honest - it's ridiculous to do so, the police have more important things to do. I'd be a lot more concerned with why it was that other adults felt that my children were behaving so badly that they needed to be restrained from entering a public place.

[John Cox]

Moreover, while this stuff is of course diverting, I'd be more interested in knowing why it is that our juniors have performed so abysmally in these events. I can't say I've paid much attention to our results in them since about thirty years ago, but at that time one was not expected to return with scores like 3/10, and if one did Leonard would no doubt have wanted to know the reason why. I know the former Soviet states take part individually now, which obviously has thickened up the top of the table a bit, but still. Or is this sort of thing the norm these days? Certainly I don't see many juniors around the UK scene who seem to me to have much ability.

[Geoff Chandler]

The poorly timed Loz incident is not uncommon.
And under the current cirmcumstances this one had a nasty undertone.

People pretending to be someone they are not are quite common on chess sites. ie. cheats.
We unearthed a cracker on RHP recently when they claimed they were
a female Russian GM. complete with picture of the GM on their profile.
It was noted that they were playing moves in their RHP games at the same
time as one of their live games were being broadcast!
She/He was banned from the site within hours.

----------------------------------------------

This Austrian matter will soon go around in circles on here as we
flounder around like headless chickens trying the guess at who did
what to whom and what the outcome will be.

All we know is there was an incident.
The ECF have agreed there was an incident but it was not racially motivated.
Which means the fact that both parties were from different religious backgrounds
had nothing at all to do with the matter.

Assault during an argument is one thing.
I think we have all seen more than out fair share of those at chess matches.
I never seen one go to court.

But racially aggravated assault is a very serious business.
I've never witnessed one in the chess arena and I don't want to.

That was an important point to establish and the ECF acted quickly on that matter.
This may explain why the media has suddenly lost interest.

This is what the police will determine first, the nature of the assault.
I expect them to find the same as the ECF. I really do hope so.

[John Cox]

There's some kind of principle in law, isn't there, that an attack is deemed to be racially motivated if the victim thinks it was? One of the finer products of the race relations industry.

[Roger de Coverly]

Assault during an argument is one thing.
I think we have all seen more than out fair share of those at chess matches.
I never seen one go to court.

There was an incident at the British Championship Congress over twenty years ago. Not actually at the Championships itself but at a nearby restaurant. A dispute over the bill led to someone being assaulted with a table lamp and a prosecution for the offence.

[Geoff Chandler]

Hi Roger.

That sounds a serious one, using a weapon.
The fights I have seen were all fisty cuffs.
And a fight over a bill in a restaurant is not quite a chess fight.
I'm talking about fights over results, or touch incidents etc.

Hi John

It has to be proved there was a racial motive behind it.

If a White guy mugs a Black guy it is a mugging.

If he did it because he was Black and not chosen at random then he is in deep trouble.
Not only is the jail term much longer it can carry other repercussions.
In Edinburgh a family were evicted from their home for racial abuse.
This sort of behaviour will not be tolerated.

If a cross culture crime has been committed the defendants lawyer
has first to get the racial intent removed and turn it into an ordinary crime.

[LawrenceCooper]

Assault during an argument is one thing.
I think we have all seen more than out fair share of those at chess matches.
I never seen one go to court.

There was an incident at the British Championship Congress over twenty years ago. Not actually at the Championships itself but at a nearby restaurant. A dispute over the bill led to someone being assaulted with a table lamp and a prosecution for the offence.

Wasn't this at the Lloyds Bank Masters or did another similar incident occur at the British?