Telegraph report about Austria

[Peter D Williams]

This is on the chess Scotland forum

Re: Mureck: Alleged ECF Incident

Postby Sohale » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:16 pm
I am the father of Yousuf, that you have pictured displaying the injury he sustained in the tournament room in Mureck on 9 August 2012. The British police are investigating.
Firstly, may I extend my thanks and sincere gratitude to the various members of the Scotland delegation that supported my family during the tournament with their kindness and especially the gentleman who offered to accompany my wife and Yousuf to hospital.
Secondly, I am appealing to anyone who has any information relating to how, when and why my son sustained his injury or regarding any matters relating to how my family were treated, no matter how trivial you may think it is, to please report it to PC 1312 Sue Newns on 01553-665356 or [email protected].
I hope that with the help of decent people at the tournament my son may witness some justice.
Thank you all.

[Andrew Martin]

Is there a chess forum on the Isle of Man?

[Andrew Zigmond]

With respect the English Chess Federation has investigated and made a ruling. Pending any further information we should abide by this.

If one of the parties chooses to post on another chess forum then that's his privilege. As this forum is hardly endorsed by the ECF anymore (and indeed is considered something of a thorn in their side) he is free to do so here.

And Carl has already made it quite plain what he will do if posts and disputes from the Chess Scotland forum are brought into here.

[Carl Hibbard]

And Carl has already made it quite plain what he will do if posts and disputes from the Chess Scotland forum are brought into here.

Posts are of course fine but disputes particularly historic ones do not really belong here do they?

[Paul McKeown]

One comment I would make is that Mureck is on the frontier with former Yugoslavia and the Steiermark has had a long historical connection with Slovenia. Given the bloody civil war that befell Yugoslavia, with a genocide inflicted on Bosnia, it is possible that there undercurrents of ill feeling in Mureck. All speculation on my part of course, I've never been there, but perhaps someone might be better placed to confirm or deny this speculation?

[Peter D Williams]

And Carl has already made it quite plain what he will do if posts and disputes from the Chess Scotland forum are brought into here.

Posts are of course fine but disputes particularly historic ones do not really belong here do they?

Does the past not shape the future?

[Jonathan Bryant]

... the English Chess Federation has investigated and made a ruling. Pending any further information we should abide by this.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. What is it that you feel should not be happening at the moment?

[Andrew Zigmond]

... the English Chess Federation has investigated and made a ruling. Pending any further information we should abide by this.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. What is it that you feel should not be happening at the moment?

Choosing my words carefully, I feel we should not be discussing the allegations of racism and assault as if they actually happened when the ECF has investigated and stated that in their view there is no substance to them.

[Peter D Williams]

... the English Chess Federation has investigated and made a ruling. Pending any further information we should abide by this.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. What is it that you feel should not be happening at the moment?

Choosing my words carefully, I feel we should not be discussing the allegations of racism and assault as if they actually happened when the ECF has investigated and stated that in their view there is no substance to them.

Are you saying that because the ECF has investigated and in their view there is no substance to them (the allegations of racism and assault)? If so I fear that you are condoning the ECF approach of keep quiet and it will go away. But in reality we all know that this is not what happens- unresolved issues keep rearing their heads!

It does appear that there is an ongoing police investigation.

I see no reason why we should not be free to discuss anything providing we chose our words carefully.

[Andrew Zigmond]

Are you saying that because the ECF has investigated and in their view there is no substance to them (the allegations of racism and assault)? If so I fear that you are condoning the ECF approach of keep quiet and it will go away. But in reality we all know that this is not what happens- unresolved issues keep rearing their heads!

It does appear that there is an ongoing police investigation.

I see no reason why we should not be free to discuss anything providing we chose our words carefully.

I think there's quite a lot we don't know yet. One could argue that we have no right to know - it's none of our business. The biggest thing that stands out for me is that we have only one side of the story.

Mr Williams - may I ask a blunt question? Do you think that the ECF has reached the wrong conclusion on this case? And if so do you have any evidence to back up this opinion?

Whatever went wrong in Austria (and something went wrong somewhere - that's one the few things we can state as fact) there are two lads who went to represent their country at chess, something which should have been one the greatest honours of their life and have now found their families exposed to the scrutiny of the national press with the worry of a police investigation hanging over them. Have they read the articles saying that they should have been sent home in disgrace? That's the main thing that worries me at the moment and why I find this poking through the ashes quite unsettling.

[Peter D Williams]

Are you saying that because the ECF has investigated and in their view there is no substance to them (the allegations of racism and assault)? If so I fear that you are condoning the ECF approach of keep quiet and it will go away. But in reality we all know that this is not what happens- unresolved issues keep rearing their heads!

It does appear that there is an ongoing police investigation.

I see no reason why we should not be free to discuss anything providing we chose our words carefully.

I think there's quite a lot we don't know yet. One could argue that we have no right to know - it's none of our business. The biggest thing that stands out for me is that we have only one side of the story.

Mr Williams - may I ask a blunt question? Do you think that the ECF has reached the wrong conclusion on this case? And if so do you have any evidence to back up this opinion?

Whatever went wrong in Austria (and something went wrong somewhere - that's one the few things we can state as fact) there are two lads who went to represent their country at chess, something which should have been one the greatest honours of their life and have now found their families exposed to the scrutiny of the national press with the worry of a police investigation hanging over them. Have they read the articles saying that they should have been sent home in disgrace? That's the main thing that worries me at the moment and why I find this poking through the ashes quite unsettling.

Andrew, please do call me Peter. I am not saying the ECF came to the wrong or right conclusion, I am concerned that they have come to a decision so quickly because:-

a) It is most unlike them to come to any decision quickly
b) It appears that the police are investigating this matter and I would have thought the wiser decision for the ECF would have been to let the professionals investigate the matter fully.
c) It must be very stressful for both families and the ECF making a quick decision is not necessary the right decision, the ultimate decision on this will come from the police and/or any civil action either side may chose to take.


I am sure this is stressful for all concerned but I don’t view it as “poking through the ashes” I think it is important that these issues are out in the open and that we can all discuss them responsibly which is what I am trying to do.

[Sean Coffey]

There's something a bit asymmetric about the discussion so far, which seems a bit odd.

The allegations might be true, or they might be false. (I have no extra information on which.)

If they're true, then it's a serious issue. The original ECF statement said so, and Peter continues to stress the possible consequences.

If they're false, ... what then? Is that a serious issue? The original ECF statement said nothing about that, and even the more recent statement is silent on it. I can't recall seeing anything Peter has written that has entertained the possibility or seriously explored the consequences. If I were one of the coaches, or one of the accused parents [and if I knew I was innocent], I'd be quite aggrieved at the tone of some of the comments here.

[Andrew Zigmond]

Peter, thank you for your reply. I think on this occasion the ECF recognised that a swift decision was necessary. Had they not conducted an immediate investigation (which needs to be kept confidential) and published a statement there would probably be comments here about the lack of any apparent action. Also the ECF aren't fools, I'm sure they are aware that there will be close scrutiny of this issue and they know how damaging it will be if they are seen to reach the wrong conclusion. That's why I am inclined to accept their statement.

The only decision the police will reach is whether or not there is any evidence a crime has been committed and if that evidence is sufficient for them to prosecute. They will not arbitrate on any rights or wrongs.

I'm not insisting upon direct comparisons but the reason T-shirtgate ultimately dragged on in such a damaging way is that, just after everyone thought it had been resolved, a third party appeared to repeat the allegations as if they were true. That's why I'm a bit wary of ongoing discussion here.

[Andrew Zigmond]

Sean Coffey's post came through while I was typing and pretty much sums up what I was trying to say. Essentially it's very hard to discuss the known facts and the unanswered questions without ultimately implying that one side is lying (an early post about the Rashomon effect sums that up better than I ever could) and I for one don't want to be drawn into making such an implication, which is why I'm try to walk a verbal tightrope in every post.

[Peter D Williams]

There's something a bit asymmetric about the discussion so far, which seems a bit odd.

The allegations might be true, or they might be false. (I have no extra information on which.)

If they're true, then it's a serious issue. The original ECF statement said so, and Peter continues to stress the possible consequences.

If they're false, ... what then? Is that a serious issue? The original ECF statement said nothing about that, and even the more recent statement is silent on it. I can't recall seeing anything Peter has written that has entertained the possibility or seriously explored the consequences. If I were one of the coaches, or one of the accused parents [and if I knew I was innocent], I'd be quite aggrieved at the tone of some of the comments here.

Well of course if the allegations are false (and I sincerely hope that they are, knowing one of the coaches) then it is a serious issue as long term it could affect his career – to be honest I would have thought that goes without saying.

The points I have tried to make and have obviously failed to do so because people don’t seem/or want to understand is very simple:-

• Once allegations of this kind are made and a complaint is made to the police they are duty bound to investigate as in the John Terry/Anton Ferdinand case (an off duty police officer made the complaint)

• The ECF have jumped the gun – the question is why? I would have been more reticent and waited for the outcome of the police investigation if there is to be one – if there isn’t then obviously they would have had to make a considered response

• I do not know who is right or wrong in this case, I am only commenting on what I have read and my personal opinion