ECF U18 / U13 County Championships 2013

National developments, strategies and ideas.
Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF U18 / U13 County Championships 2013

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu May 02, 2013 1:53 pm

Ray Sayers wrote:Chess players start somewhere.
If you can take part in the 4NCL or the Oxford FIDE league as a wild card without membership being required, the ECF Council should at least have been given the option to vote on a similar concession being available in the National Schools and other school or Junior team events.

Sean Hewitt
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Re: ECF U18 / U13 County Championships 2013

Post by Sean Hewitt » Thu May 02, 2013 2:06 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:If you can take part in the 4NCL or the Oxford FIDE league as a wild card without membership being required, the ECF Council should at least have been given the option to vote on a similar concession being available in the National Schools and other school or Junior team events.
I think you should propose abolishing the ECF Board as it seems that you want Council to micro-manage the ECF.

Phil Neatherway
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Re: ECF U18 / U13 County Championships 2013

Post by Phil Neatherway » Thu May 02, 2013 2:30 pm

Better still, I think Roger should get elected to Council.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF U18 / U13 County Championships 2013

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu May 02, 2013 2:35 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:I think you should propose abolishing the ECF Board as it seems that you want Council to micro-manage the ECF.
The ECF Board, whoever is on it, has a long history of taking decisions of principle which could be viewed as requiring approval by representatives of the wider membership. It has in the past recognised this, particularly when a Council meeting was imminent. The decision to remove the links to this forum from the ECF website was one such decision.

The prospective ECF president was defeated on his proposal in October 2012 that there should be a review of the membership scheme. It would seem to me that was the voting membership insisting that strategic changes to the membership scheme were its own prerogative and any proposed changes by the Board should be minor in nature and presented for approval. The requirement that compulsory ECF membership should be required for players in the National Schools is a quite clear extension of the premise of universal membership to one of compulsory membership and an extension to players and organisers outside of the traditional club, league and Congress structure.

Krishna Shiatis
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Re: ECF U18 / U13 County Championships 2013

Post by Krishna Shiatis » Thu May 02, 2013 7:13 pm

Just for clarity, whose responsibilty is it to collect the money? Will the ECF collect from the parents on the day or will the junior organisation be responsible for collection and passing the monies on?

Kent is in the process of checking if all their players in the U18s and U13 majors are ECF members. I was just wondering what happens if they are not and they do not wish to pay.

Also what is the rationale of not rating the minor section? I don't mind, just wondering... my two are playing, one in the minors and one in the major and I am sure the one in the minor section will want his games graded.

Sean Hewitt
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Re: ECF U18 / U13 County Championships 2013

Post by Sean Hewitt » Thu May 02, 2013 7:32 pm

Krishna Shiatis wrote:Just for clarity, whose responsibilty is it to collect the money? Will the ECF collect from the parents on the day or will the junior organisation be responsible for collection and passing the monies on?

Kent is in the process of checking if all their players in the U18s and U13 majors are ECF members. I was just wondering what happens if they are not and they do not wish to pay.
In order to play in the U18 or U13 Major players must be ECF members. Therefore, there is no money to collect as non-members are not eligible.
Krishna Shiatis wrote:Also what is the rationale of not rating the minor section? I don't mind, just wondering... my two are playing, one in the minors and one in the major and I am sure the one in the minor section will want his games graded.
The view was put forward that some teams / players would prefer not to be ECF members. That would rule them out of the U18 and the U13 Major, so by making the U13 Minor ungraded, they could play in that event without having to join.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF U18 / U13 County Championships 2013

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu May 02, 2013 8:04 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote: Therefore, there is no money to collect as non-members are not eligible.
Well there is money to collect if a non-member has been asked to play and is on the team sheet, else otherwise there's a forfeit through ineligibility.

Presumably the parents or at a pinch the team manager are expected to make the payments beforehand, either via the paysubsonline website or the ECF Office.

Krishna Shiatis
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Re: ECF U18 / U13 County Championships 2013

Post by Krishna Shiatis » Thu May 02, 2013 8:04 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:
Krishna Shiatis wrote:Just for clarity, whose responsibilty is it to collect the money? Will the ECF collect from the parents on the day or will the junior organisation be responsible for collection and passing the monies on?

Kent is in the process of checking if all their players in the U18s and U13 majors are ECF members. I was just wondering what happens if they are not and they do not wish to pay.
In order to play in the U18 or U13 Major players must be ECF members. Therefore, there is no money to collect as non-members are not eligible.
I do not know what our non-members will decide, but how exactly does this encourage participation? If some of our team can not come, where does that leave the rest of the team?
Sean Hewitt wrote:
Krishna Shiatis wrote:Also what is the rationale of not rating the minor section? I don't mind, just wondering... my two are playing, one in the minors and one in the major and I am sure the one in the minor section will want his games graded.
The view was put forward that some teams / players would prefer not to be ECF members. That would rule them out of the U18 and the U13 Major, so by making the U13 Minor ungraded, they could play in that event without having to join.

If they are older than 13 and/or above a certain grade, they are still not eligible, it does not really fix anything for them. Does that mean that some counties are not fielding teams in the other sections because of this rule? Is that what the ECF hoped to achieve?

Also, for those that have paid to join the ECF and are playing in the U13 minor section, their games are not being graded. Might they not feel hard done by?

I am no expert here and am just beginning to get my head around the possible consequences of the new rule and I think I agree strongly with Neill and Roger D C about granting an exemption to the juniors as you did 4NCL.

Sean Hewitt
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Re: ECF U18 / U13 County Championships 2013

Post by Sean Hewitt » Thu May 02, 2013 11:28 pm

Krishna Shiatis wrote:I am no expert here and am just beginning to get my head around the possible consequences of the new rule and I think I agree strongly with Neill and Roger D C about granting an exemption to the juniors as you did 4NCL.
I did not grant an exemption to the 4NCL. I do wish that, just once, you might actually get something right before posting here. Oh well.

If you don't like the set up for this event, talk to the ECF Junior Director. He (and his team) made the grading / membership call.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF U18 / U13 County Championships 2013

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri May 03, 2013 12:06 am

Sean Hewitt wrote:I did not grant an exemption to the 4NCL. I do wish that, just once, you might actually get something right before posting here. Oh well..
The ECF Council meeting confirmed an exemption for 4NCL wild cards based on a paper by the DoMM. I don't know if the supposed persuasive case for this was presented to the meeting in addition to the paper. Admittedly that just confirmed a pre-existing concession, but the National Schools competition neither demanding membership nor Game Fee was also a pre-existing concession.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: ECF U18 / U13 County Championships 2013

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Fri May 03, 2013 12:11 am

Krishna Shiatis wrote:
Also, for those that have paid to join the ECF and are playing in the U13 minor section, their games are not being graded. Might they not feel hard done by?
This is proving the main headache of the new membership and game fee structure; a lot of players in Yorkshire are feeling hard done by for similar reasons. To be fair to the ECF board Krishna's post seems to suggest the ECF can't win; they make events members only and they are told they are discouraging participation or they allow an exemption in events where grading may not be so important and are told they are short changing ECF members.

The point a lot of people seem to miss is that if events were to be graded before game fee would have to be paid; this was cheaper than ECF membership but amounted to a stealth charge. ECF Membership (£8 for juniors) is not excessive and only has to be paid once. But I appreciate there are practical problems that the ECF seems not to have an answer for; ie what do you do if a keen junior turns up expecting to play and the fee hasn't been paid (maybe the parents misunderstood). Do we turn them away?
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF U18 / U13 County Championships 2013

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri May 03, 2013 12:25 am

Andrew Zigmond wrote: The point a lot of people seem to miss is that if events were to be graded before game fee would have to be paid; this was cheaper than ECF membership but amounted to a stealth charge.
The ECF's requirements for a contribution to its national expenses should be regarded as an expense of organising the event and no more or less a stealth charge than hiring the premises, hiring an arbiter or providing complimentary refreshments. If you have expenses of running an event, you need to either find someone to sponsor it or charge an entry fee. Neil's events were able to offer free entry because the hosting school offered the venue for nothing and the ECF waived any participation fees.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: ECF U18 / U13 County Championships 2013

Post by LawrenceCooper » Fri May 03, 2013 9:39 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Andrew Zigmond wrote: The point a lot of people seem to miss is that if events were to be graded before game fee would have to be paid; this was cheaper than ECF membership but amounted to a stealth charge.
The ECF's requirements for a contribution to its national expenses should be regarded as an expense of organising the event and no more or less a stealth charge than hiring the premises, hiring an arbiter or providing complimentary refreshments. If you have expenses of running an event, you need to either find someone to sponsor it or charge an entry fee. Neil's events were able to offer free entry because the hosting school offered the venue for nothing and the ECF waived any participation fees.
This confused me. Isn't game fee an expense to the organiser but membership would be an expense to the player/parents :?

Sean Hewitt
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Re: ECF U18 / U13 County Championships 2013

Post by Sean Hewitt » Fri May 03, 2013 9:43 am

Andrew Zigmond wrote:To be fair to the ECF board Krishna's post seems to suggest the ECF can't win; they make events members only and they are told they are discouraging participation or they allow an exemption in events where grading may not be so important and are told they are short changing ECF members.
Welcome to my world :D

I am sure that there are many cases for potential exemptions. However, for each exemption either the non-exempt have to pay more or the ECF has to do less. For example, we could exempt all juniors from membership if we wanted to. It would cost £2.50 - £3 per adult to do this. This in the context of Council heavily defeating one chap's motion that bronze membership should increase from £13 to £14.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF U18 / U13 County Championships 2013

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri May 03, 2013 10:28 am

LawrenceCooper wrote: This confused me. Isn't game fee an expense to the organiser but membership would be an expense to the player/parents :?
The DoMM and others have claimed in the past that Game Fee is an expense to the player. I think they are wrong because it's an expense like arbiter's fees, venue hire or refreshments and doesn't have to be charged to players or teams if alternative funding is available.

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