Why are junior organisers against ECF membership?

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Neill Cooper
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Why are junior organisers against ECF membership?

Post by Neill Cooper » Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:52 pm

Andrew Varney wrote:My view. Easy answer - junior organisers are no more against ECF membership than any other party, and presumably the reasons are the same. However, junior organisers are pro junior chess and see some unique issues in the blinkered way that policies are implemented which set back the development of this, particularly at entry level.

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Re: Why are junior organisers against ECF membership?

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:57 pm

Andrew Varney wrote:Easy answer - junior organisers are no more against ECF membership than any other party
Well that's demonstrably false!

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Re: Why are junior organisers against ECF membership?

Post by Andrew Varney » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:02 pm

Then please demonstrate that! Where are your survey statistics comparing the response of junior organisers to the general chess-playing population and how was the question worded?

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Re: Why are junior organisers against ECF membership?

Post by Neill Cooper » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:42 pm

Junior organisers are not against ECF membership. They were against the way the previous board proposed to introduce it.
Item 21 of the ECF Council meeting April 2012 - http://www.englishchess.org.uk/wp-conte ... ership.doc

Since the next council meeting is not until October let's come up with an ECF junior membership scheme that all junior organisers will fully support by this time involving them in designing it.
I therefore suggest the Board delegate the task of designing a suitable ECF junior membership scheme to the Junior Director.
Last edited by Neill Cooper on Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Why are junior organisers against ECF membership?

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:49 pm

Neill Cooper wrote:I therefore suggest the Board delegate the task of designing a suitable ECF junior membership scheme to the Junior Director.
Surely the Junior Director and Membership and Marketing Director would/could work together on this, or am I missing something here?

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Re: Why are junior organisers against ECF membership?

Post by Neill Cooper » Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:09 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Neill Cooper wrote:I therefore suggest the Board delegate the task of designing a suitable ECF junior membership scheme to the Junior Director.
Surely the Junior Director and Membership and Marketing Director would/could work together on this, or am I missing something here?
Obviously they would work together, but it is the Junior director who would be consulting with Junior organisers.

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Re: Why are junior organisers against ECF membership?

Post by Andrew Varney » Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:33 pm

Neil, your link did not work for me, but in searching I found this (item C16.21) at http://www.englishchess.org.uk/about-2/ ... and-board/ from April 2012, which may be what you were referring to. I'd not read this before, but interestingly it very closely reflects my views based on observations and experience over the last few years. It is actually very PRO membership, not ANTI!

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Re: Why are junior organisers against ECF membership?

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:49 pm

Andrew Varney wrote:Then please demonstrate that! Where are your survey statistics comparing the response of junior organisers to the general chess-playing population and how was the question worded?
No problem. I have not conducted any survey (neither, I suspect, have you). I have witnessed comments made by junior organisers at council and based on actual correspondence I have received from junior organisations I've found

Junior Organisers who are in favour of membership : Zero
Junior Organisers who are against membership : All of them

However, please feel free to cite your own source of information.

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Re: Why are junior organisers against ECF membership?

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:57 pm

Neill Cooper wrote:Junior organisers are not against ECF membership. They were against the way the previous board proposed to introduce it.
Item 21 of the ECF Council meeting April 2012 - http://www.englishchess.org.uk/wp-conte ... ership.doc
I read this at the time. All I'll say is that I'm glad it didn't get the support to get off the ground.
Neill Cooper wrote:Since the next council meeting is not until October let's come up with an ECF junior membership scheme that all junior organisers will fully support
Amen to that. It would help if they could articulate why they are against the current scheme. It's a question frequently asked, though sadly not answered.
Neill Cooper wrote:...by this time involving them in designing it.
Great idea. Perhaps you could start by telling us why you're against the current scheme, which 9500 players have signed up to. Then tell us how you think things could be improved.
Neill Cooper wrote:I therefore suggest the Board delegate the task of designing a suitable ECF junior membership scheme to the Junior Director.
As membership is the responsibility of the Director of Marketing and Membership, that's not a very sensible idea.

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Re: Why are junior organisers against ECF membership?

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:01 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Neill Cooper wrote:I therefore suggest the Board delegate the task of designing a suitable ECF junior membership scheme to the Junior Director.
Surely the Junior Director and Membership and Marketing Director would/could work together on this, or am I missing something here?
Phil and I are indeed working closely on this and a number of other issues. The important thing is for junior organisers to consult with parents. Parents are not as anti ECF membership as many junior organisers are which I suspect will come as a surprise to some.

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Re: Why are junior organisers against ECF membership?

Post by IanDavis » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:11 pm

What do they know that you ignore?

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Re: Why are junior organisers against ECF membership?

Post by Neill Cooper » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:12 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:
Neill Cooper wrote:Since the next council meeting is not until October let's come up with an ECF junior membership scheme that all junior organisers will fully support
Amen to that. It would help if they could articulate why they are against the current scheme. It's a question frequently asked, though sadly not answered.

Is not the following, from April 2012, reasonably clear
"Many junior chess associations are very concerned about the requirement implied by the proposed new ECF membership scheme for juniors to become members when they take part in their first ever 5 round or 6 round one-day event. Experience at county level is that typically the first two events a child plays in are experiments for them (and their parents) as to whether they enjoy playing competitive chess. Many junior chess associations who run these events do not wish to charge extra (ECF membership fee) to new players until it is clear that they are committed to competitive chess, which they feel has occurred once they enter their third such event."

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Re: Why are junior organisers against ECF membership?

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:15 pm

Neill Cooper wrote:
Sean Hewitt wrote:
Neill Cooper wrote:Since the next council meeting is not until October let's come up with an ECF junior membership scheme that all junior organisers will fully support
Amen to that. It would help if they could articulate why they are against the current scheme. It's a question frequently asked, though sadly not answered.

Is not the following, from April 2012, reasonably clear
"Many junior chess associations are very concerned about the requirement implied by the proposed new ECF membership scheme for juniors to become members when they take part in their first ever 5 round or 6 round one-day event. Experience at county level is that typically the first two events a child plays in are experiments for them (and their parents) as to whether they enjoy playing competitive chess. Many junior chess associations who run these events do not wish to charge extra (ECF membership fee) to new players until it is clear that they are committed to competitive chess, which they feel has occurred once they enter their third such event."
[My emphasis added]
So they are against the membership scheme based on a feeling? Is there any evidence to back this feeling up?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Why are junior organisers against ECF membership?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:28 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:which 9500 players have signed up to.
For adults playing more than 6 games, there wasn't much of a choice. But with the usual count of those playing at least one graded game being in the 14000 to 15000 range in previous years, that leaves around 5000 who haven't signed up.

There's not much chess left to play in the current grading half season. Much of Yorkshire will presumably disappear and those Junior events who opted out. What's the prediction for numbers and games played?

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Re: Why are junior organisers against ECF membership?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:33 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote: Junior Organisers who are in favour of membership : Zero
Junior Organisers who are against membership : All of them
That makes a change. I though it was only old bores on the forum who were anti.

So if true, and a question for the former CEO really, why did the ECF embark on such a divisive project? If it was that wonderful to pay £ 12 per head instead of 60p per game, adult leagues and counties would have gladly converted themselves into MOs.

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