Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

National developments, strategies and ideas.
Michael Flatt
Posts: 1235
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:36 am
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by Michael Flatt » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:28 pm

I have just discovered that there is a related thread posted earlier this year entitled "Selection to European schools". The link to it is: http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6405

Perhaps, these two threads should be read together or merged to allow a better understanding of the background?

PeterFarr
Posts: 600
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:20 pm
Location: Horsham, Sussex

Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by PeterFarr » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:33 pm

In fairness to the ECF, from a quick look through, England sent the 5th biggest squad to Kavala, behind only Greece itself, Turkey, Russia and Azerbaijan. As Roger has pointed out, these events are really not terribly representative, and I hope parents (and schools that might be releasing children during term-time) understand this.

There were only 19 countries represented at all, with notable absentees including Armenia, Germany, Spain, Italy, The Netherlands, and all of Scandinavia.

So of course the blitz and rapid tournaments that were for some reason given the "world schools" status were even more unrepresentative.

Whether these are valuable training events and good fun for the children is a slightly different question - hopefully they are.

Michael Flatt
Posts: 1235
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:36 am
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by Michael Flatt » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:49 am

An item in the precis of the ECF Board meeting held on 15th July may be of interest. The so called "snap shot" Minutes were published on the ECF website late last night.

"2. The Board received a report regarding a complaint about the English Youth Grand Prix. The Board asked the NED (JC) to liaise with Mike Gunn and Chris Majer to advise the Board on how the complaints procedure can be made serviceable."

There are no details given about the particular complaint but with Julian Clissold, Mike Gunn and Chris Majer reviewing the Complaints Procedure, perhaps these issues will be better treated in future.

Rad Kadengal
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:07 pm

Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by Rad Kadengal » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:55 am

David Shepherd wrote: ..ECF to charge an admin fee to .... employing a part time person to arrange the bookings..
Michael Farthing wrote: ..independently from the sponsoring and selection process, not necessarily from the ECF acting in its capacity as assistant administrator..
Michael Farthing wrote: ..essential point is about allowing the quota to be filled up..
Why not think more on these lines so that the problem is fully resolved and we can all live happily ever after

Michael Flatt
Posts: 1235
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:36 am
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by Michael Flatt » Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:52 am

The ECF choose to appoint a Selection Committee to nominate participants in prestigious International Tournaments.

The role of the Committee is to identify a pool of suitably qualified candidates and select the strongest candidates.

If the selection criteria or their implementation are disputed there needs to be an acceptable Appeals or Complaints Procedure. Individuals who feel that they have been unfairly overlooked should make their complaint known to the appropriate authority.

I am not sure of the benefit of complaining about the system in a Public Forum unless you aim to enlist support for a petition to be presented to the ECF Board with your suggested alternative selection procedure.

In looking back to the report submitted to the 2013 AGM by the then Director responsible for Junior Chess it is clear that the Policy of nominating so many candidates by virtue of their performance in a single competition (the Delancey UK Schools Chess Challenge) was grossly unfair.

The current Director of Junior Chess has the job of implementing a fairer policy and his post on this forum earlier year shows his willingness to resolve your complaint.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 19263
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:41 am

Michael Flatt wrote: In looking back to the report submitted to the 2013 AGM by the then Director responsible for Junior Chess it is clear that the Policy of nominating so many candidates by virtue of their performance in a single competition (the Delancey UK Schools Chess Challenge) was grossly unfair.
Isn't this a consequence of the ECF setting up a partnership with the Delancey Challenge? The Delancey challenge has established a dominant market share of school based chess, but the ECF controls access to official international junior competitions? So if Delancey wanted to offer international selection as an additional prize, it had to do it through the ECF.

The UK Chess Challenge was set up and developed without the involvement of the then BCF other than that the BCF didn't attempt to stop it or impose requirements on it other than the normal requirements for a graded event, which only applied to the finals anyway.

User avatar
Michael Farthing
Posts: 1968
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:28 pm
Location: Morecambe, Europe

Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by Michael Farthing » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:33 am

Michael Flatt wrote:The ECF choose to appoint a Selection Committee to nominate participants in prestigious International Tournaments.

The role of the Committee is to identify a pool of suitably qualified candidates and select the strongest candidates.

If the selection criteria or their implementation are disputed there needs to be an acceptable Appeals or Complaints Procedure. Individuals who feel that they have been unfairly overlooked should make their complaint known to the appropriate authority.
The selection process may or may not be unfair. That is quite irrelevant to the discussion taking place here. The ECF decides on the candidates it thinks most suitable to send and has a quota. Sometimes the quota may not be filled. This might be for various reasons: maybe they decide there are not enough suitable players; maybe they have a limited number of trainers; maybe they can't afford to send more. The issue here is whether the excess quota should be thrown open to other, non-sponsored, players.
I am not sure of the benefit of complaining about the system in a Public Forum unless you aim to enlist support for a petition to be presented to the ECF Board with your suggested alternative selection procedure.
It's a discussion. That's what a public forum is for. Maybe Rad will decide he's wrong. Maybe some people will think, "Hey, he's on to something" Maybe a third idea will emerge. That's what we're here for. Getting ideas straight and well thought out is quite a useful prelude to mounting an official campaign for change. Admittedly, that's not a very widely understood concept amongst us chess players... Chessplayers seem to prefer "Press clock quickly, think in opponent's time".

[Incidentally, Michael, I was sad to see that in the ECF forum you referred to here "As another place". While probably nearly everyone reading that knew what was meant it seems sad that we should simply go along with the perceived aim of the ECF forum to sideline us. Let us all state clearly "In the English Chess forum..". Most discussion on English chess happens here and we shouldn't be shy of letting this be seen.]

Michael Flatt
Posts: 1235
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:36 am
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by Michael Flatt » Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:20 am

Hi Michael,

I am all in favour of discussion, but I prefer it better if the discussion can result in some positive action. To this end I have raised a question on the ECF Forum regarding Junior selection criteria, Appeals and Complaints.

Also, I have checked the selection criteria provided on the ECF website (http://englishchess.org.uk/Juniors/play ... on-policy/). It clearly states the maximum number of players it will send to particular competitions. That is ECF Policy.

Where there are unfilled vacancies it is normal to contact the Organiser of the event. It is not unreasonable for the organiser to ask the relevant National Body to support such an application.

The objection being aired here is the possibility that the National Body (i.e. the ECF) might veto such an application because it falls outside their stated selection policy. In this particular case I have no idea as to whether an independent application has been vetoed in this way.

Obviously, if sufficient members would want the ECF to modify their selection policy a suitable proposal needs to be presented to the ECF Board.

Update - My question on the ECF site has been answered satisfactorily by the Director of Junior Chess.

Michael Flatt
Posts: 1235
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:36 am
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by Michael Flatt » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:15 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Michael Flatt wrote: In looking back to the report submitted to the 2013 AGM by the then Director responsible for Junior Chess it is clear that the Policy of nominating so many candidates by virtue of their performance in a single competition (the Delancey UK Schools Chess Challenge) was grossly unfair.
Isn't this a consequence of the ECF setting up a partnership with the Delancey Challenge? The Delancey challenge has established a dominant market share of school based chess, but the ECF controls access to official international junior competitions? So if Delancey wanted to offer international selection as an additional prize, it had to do it through the ECF.

The UK Chess Challenge was set up and developed without the involvement of the then BCF other than that the BCF didn't attempt to stop it or impose requirements on it other than the normal requirements for a graded event, which only applied to the finals anyway.
Not really knowing the history, I am probably wrong in calling it unfair.

There are other opportunities for Juniors to gain International Experience and to become a successful player one has to learn how to cope with disappointment and move on to the next event. A truly talented player will prevail regardless of whether he or she competes in a particular event.

User avatar
Peter D Williams
Posts: 839
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:15 pm
Location: Hampshire

Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by Peter D Williams » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:53 pm

Michael Flatt wrote: A truly talented player will prevail regardless of whether he or she competes in a particular event.
Also the parents would need the resources to fund a truly talented player.
when you are successful many losers bark at you.

Rad Kadengal
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:07 pm

Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by Rad Kadengal » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:04 pm

Michael Flatt wrote: There are other opportunities..
may be, may be not.... but lots of children want to play in the World Youth/Rapid/Blitz and European Youth/Rapid/Blitz.

What is your problem?
Does it make you happy to disappoint them when plenty of food is available, by wasting it?

Michael Flatt wrote: learn how to cope with disappointment
You sound like the boy who takes the ball and goes home...

Why do you want to talk about disappointment when you can easily set the children free and give them choice?

It is freedom and choice we are talking about...

Look, it is emerging that unused quota should be thrown open... The question was on the logistics and there are practical proposals already on the table.. all looks great.

I wish you join the movement to bring about change and make positive contributions.. what is stopping you?
Peter D Williams wrote: ..parents would need ... to fund a ... player.
The OP will help parents handle their finances better.. e.g. availability of unused quota will help parents plan their trips depending on the availability of funds to them, rather than being stressed about missing out on a transient opportunity thrown to them by the home federation when their funds are low...
With plenty of people on the merry trip, people can be helpful to each other too..

silver bullet, eh?

Freedom and Choice .. and the best for English chess.. and parents and children..

Once we converge on that I am sure there will be enough momentum to bring about the change

Michael Flatt
Posts: 1235
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:36 am
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by Michael Flatt » Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:25 am

Mr Kadengal,

The ECF is the recognised National Body for chess in England and part of their role is to nominate Junior players to compete in International Tournaments. That is a fact that you cannot ignore.

I have raised your concerns about the selection procedure with the Director of Junior Chess who chairs the Selection Committee and he has offered to discuss this matter with you. I note from a previous thread on this forum that he has made this offer before.

I can only suggest as a bystander, not knowing the details of your claim and not having any power to intervene, that you engage in conversation with those that have authority in these matters.

It may also help to talk with the secretary or chairman of your local Junior Chess Association, who I would expect could offer support to your claim.

Rad Kadengal
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:07 pm

Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by Rad Kadengal » Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:13 pm

Michael Flatt wrote: a fact that you cannot ignore
ECF is a limited company, owning the admission rights for FIDE by popular consent of English players.
The key is such an organisation cannot be allowed to exercise powers that hampers a majority of junior players by starving them of opportunities when there is enough food available. I hope you get that.
Michael Flatt wrote: raised your concerns about the selection procedure with the Director of Junior Chess
This is good. If you can discuss further about adopting the OP as a way of going forward, for the common good of English chess, will be a wonderful contribution from you.
Please present the views from the home federation here.. and let's debate to a progressive conclusion.
Michael Flatt wrote: I note from a previous thread on this forum that he has made this offer before
I did briefly discuss in person and all I got back was 'follow the rules'. The rules are no good and the person seemed helpless.

Therefore the best thing to do is to 'change the rules' to make it easy for everyone involved. Hence the OP.
Michael Flatt wrote: not knowing the details of your claim
My claim is the OP.. so you know all the details.
Mind you, this is not only my claim, but that of several parents... A good percentage of them don't speak out because they are intimidated by the 'authority figures'. They fear that proposing any change will be misconstrued as 'locking horns' (your comments bear witness) and will create problems for their child personally during 'selection discussions'.

One thing Michael, this is not a personal claim, and please refrain from trying to make it look like one. This is not a local issue and therefore I am not taking the route you suggested.

This is the beginning of a campaign to change the rules that strangles English junior chess nationally

You have been advised before.. Please bring back your focus and help bring about change and a bit of fresh air..
Michael Farthing wrote: The selection process may or may not be unfair. That is quite irrelevant to the discussion taking place here. The ECF decides on the candidates it thinks most suitable to send and has a quota. .... The issue here is whether the excess quota should be thrown open to other, non-sponsored, players.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 19263
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:30 pm

Rad Kadengal wrote: ECF is a limited company, owning the admission rights for FIDE by popular consent of English players.
Company limited by Guarantee rather than shares. But "admission rights for FIDE" is because FIDE recognises it as the national body for England. Admittedly it has to have at least tacit consent of players and organisations to remain the national body.
Rad Kadengal wrote: The key is such an organisation cannot be allowed to exercise powers that hampers a majority of junior players by starving them of opportunities when there is enough food available.
I think that case is unproven. There's a wealth of unused opportunities if you look outside the formal international box. The largest section at the British in Aberystwyth is likely to be the Senior over 60s. Why aren't the Junior events packed out? Why for that matter were there so few English players at the Commonwealth Championships in Glasgow earlier this year?

User avatar
Peter D Williams
Posts: 839
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:15 pm
Location: Hampshire

Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by Peter D Williams » Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:01 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote: Why aren't the Junior events packed out? Why for that matter were there so few English players at the Commonwealth Championships in Glasgow earlier this year?
The cost of staying for the event could be a major reason.
when you are successful many losers bark at you.

Post Reply