Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

National developments, strategies and ideas.
Michael Flatt
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Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by Michael Flatt » Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:14 pm

I can only suggest that talking with your local Junior Chess Association or Adult Chess Association would be a positive first step.

If you can enlist the support of Junior Chess organisers and other relevant bodies such as EPSCA you are more likely to be able influence official policy.

It should be noted that the existing Junior Director was constrained to follow the policies of his immediate predecessor and he had not been in post long enough to implement any changes.

The Director of Junior Chess has indicated that he will be stepping down in October so there is an opportunity for a candidate favourable to your cause to stand.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by Michael Farthing » Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:02 pm

Michael,

You seem surprisingly antagonistic about this and seem to want to block off any discussion or exchange of ideas here. What is the sense in putting energy into an election campaign over a single aspect of policy like this? We want a junior chess director who (like the current incumbent) works hard for junior chess and is committed to it. What is the sense in trying to get a junior director who just wants to change one aspect of policy? Surely it is better to discuss that idea openly and freely with the hope that some consensus may emerge? Rad has made it abundantly clear that he is not after a pointless confrontation.

It would be great if Lawrence Cooper could join in here and we could discuss the idea with good will and attentive ears on both 'sides', if indeed there are any sides at the moment. Sadly, however, as he has decided not to continue in post, for whatever reason, his appetite for this may understandably be lessened.

However, I would also encourage Rad to make another contact with Lawrence, and if he does this he might also add a second agenda of getting him to continue in post.

Michael Flatt
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Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by Michael Flatt » Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:47 pm

Michael Farthing wrote:Michael,

You seem surprisingly antagonistic about this and seem to want to block off any discussion or exchange of ideas here.
How so?

I am strictly neutral. I have merely suggested how one might go about changing the selection policy if one doesn't agree with it.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by Michael Farthing » Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:10 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:
Michael Farthing wrote:Michael,
You seem surprisingly antagonistic about this and seem to want to block off any discussion or exchange of ideas here.
How so?
I am strictly neutral. I have merely suggested how one might go about changing the selection policy if one doesn't agree with it.
O.K. I accept that. Perhaps I was over sensitive.

Rad Kadengal
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Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by Rad Kadengal » Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:00 am

Roger de Coverly wrote: ...case is unproven. There's a wealth of unused opportunities if you look outside the formal international box
The case is proven by your own words : "formal international box" .. that is what people WANT ...
People want it as much as the home federation wants to deny it..

Open it up and you will see the appetite. What is stopping you now from opening up the unused quota?
Michael Farthing wrote: ..encourage Rad to make another contact with Lawrence..
If I see Lawrence at Aberystwyth I will try speak to him about this
Michael Flatt wrote: ..suggested how one might go about changing the .. policy
Help us out, Michael, rather than being neutral...

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:31 am

"If you can enlist the support of Junior Chess organisers and other relevant bodies such as EPSCA you are more likely to be able influence official policy."

I thought EPSCA (like many others) was independent of ECF? That's one of the reasons it is difficult to change anything. A lot of junior organisers and coaches are only interested in "their" juniors.

But I agree with the principle that you need to get support from people involved in junior chess, to at least get ideas discussed. Then all you have to do is win the vote.

Mick Norris
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Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by Mick Norris » Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:04 am

EPSCA Chairman is Julian Clissold, who is an ECF NED

http://www.epsca.org.uk/about.html
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

PeterFarr
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Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by PeterFarr » Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:14 am

Rad Kadengal wrote:
Roger de Coverly wrote: ...case is unproven. There's a wealth of unused opportunities if you look outside the formal international box
The case is proven by your own words : "formal international box" .. that is what people WANT ...
People want it as much as the home federation wants to deny it..

Open it up and you will see the appetite. What is stopping you now from opening up the unused quota?
I don't get the logic of this at all. If you open it up to anybody, it's not really in the "formal international box", so how is it better than any other tournament? - e.g. the Commonwealth, as Roger says.

As I pointed out a couple of days ago, this is any case not a terribly representative event - 90% of the players came from 6 countries only, and half of them were from Russia and Greece.

Maybe on that basis there was a case for saying the ECF could have let anyone go on their own account, but you can't also then say it's got the cachet of a "formal international box" tournament. In fact this competition demonstrably does not match up to it's title in any way, given that England is the only Western European federation that bother to send any players at all. So why not take some of any number of other chess playing opportunities that there are?

Richard Bates
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Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by Richard Bates » Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:42 am

No doubt many (parents) want it so that they can put "represented England at chess" on their CV.

Even if this story about "an IM who would have become a GM" were true/justified - it has surely little relevance to this thread since it could only have applied to a time when we rarely sent more than one individual in any age group.

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Adam Raoof
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Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by Adam Raoof » Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:14 pm

As a relative outsider where junior chess is concerned, can I ask a few questions?

How many places are we allocated at World / European junior events?
How many of those places are paid for (free) by the organisers?
Who decides who is allocated those place(s)?
How many of the other places we take up are paid for by the ECF?
How many of the other places we take up are paid for by parents?

Generally;

I believe that is a good thing that the ECF is the official body through which selection is made.
I think it's a good thing that the ECF has a transparent selection procedure.
I think it would be a good thing if the ECF took up all the places offered to them.
I think the ECF should aim to use their selection procedure to achieve this end.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:35 pm

Adam Raoof wrote: (a)How many places are we allocated at World / European junior events?
(b)How many of those places are paid for (free) by the organisers?
(c)Who decides who is allocated those place(s)?
(d)How many of the other places we take up are paid for by the ECF?
(e)How many of the other places we take up are paid for by parents?
(a) It's variable. Where organisers are trying to run at a profit, probably as many as the ECF asks for.
(b) There's usually one free place per age group and gender, but the ECF Squad absorb this into the overall costings.
(c) There's a long and complex selection document and a junior selection committee to apply it.
http://englishchess.org.uk/Juniors/play ... on-policy/
Selectors
Lawrence Cooper, Director of Junior Chess and Education (chair)
Nick Pert (National Head Coach)
Angela Eyton (Junior Development Officer)
Sabrina Chevannes (Manager of Girls Chess)
Jovanka Houska
Andrew Martin (Manager of Schools Chess)
Julian Clissold (National Primary Schools Co-ordinator)
(d) and (e) The ECF pays for all places but it's all money paid by parents. It's reported in the ECF Accounts, which has led past CEOs to claim the ECF to be a larger organisation than it really was.

Additionally there's material by Phil Ehr from a couple of years ago expanding on the underlying logic.

The underlying premise is that you can only play in these events if part of an official squad organised by the ECF. The current complaint appears to be that most or all of the places in the "development" squads have been handed to the "Basman events" for award.

But places in squads to play in foreign tournaments might have a market value. From that point of view the ECF is justified in selling them, if only to other organisations to obtain the co-operation of "disaffected actors" as AP put it.

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Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by PeterFarr » Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:36 pm

From the tournament regulations for the European schools championships:


"1. INVITATION
The European Chess Union (E.C.U), the International School Chess Union (I.S.C.U.) and the Olympic Sports
Academy of Thessaloniki have the honour of inviting all National Chess Federations of the European Chess
Union and eligible players to the European School Championships 2014 organised in Kavala, Greece from
16 June (arrivals) to 27 June (departures).

2. PARTICIPATION – AGE LIMITS
2.1. Each National Federation or School Association or schools may enter an unlimited number of players in
each of the 12 age groups. In case that one girl group has less than 10 participants, it will be merged with
the same open age group category."

While it's perhaps not entirely clear, it appears that an entry by an individual school, as distinct from the Federation itself, would have been acceptable. So maybe Rod missed a trick by not trying that route. It's perfectly obvious that revenue maximisation was one of the key goals of the organizers.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:42 pm

PeterFarr wrote: While it's perhaps not entirely clear, it appears that an entry by an individual school, as distinct from the Federation itself, would have been acceptable.
Or for that matter, it would have been possible to send both an ECF Squad and an EPSCA Squad. As suggested, revenue maximisation was the organiser's objective.

You need caution about sending large squads if other countries don't do the same. If it ends up that English players play each other, they could have stayed at home, or run a similar event but for domestic players only. If "played for England at chess" is a valuable addition to a CV, unused places are plentiful from U14 upwards, but does require "decent amateur chess player" as well.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:01 am

"EPSCA Chairman is Julian Clissold, who is an ECF NED"

which does not necessarily mean that EPSCA is part of ECF... I though it ran its own teams and championships. This sort of thing can be confusing - I have seen people described as British Junior Champions, when they have won a competition run by an independent organisation. I expect a British Champion to emerge from a hard-fought competition in a remote corner of the British Isles, alongside many other competitions.

Michael Flatt
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Re: Junior selection: FIDE World/European Championships

Post by Michael Flatt » Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:36 am

A recent thread regarding the Delancey UK Schools Chess Challenge and qualification to a Silver Plate competition has revealed the existence of another junior organisation: UK Chess Academy. http://ukchessacademy.com/?page_id=311

It appears UK Chess Academy nominate players to the ECF to represent England in the World and European Junior Championships.

Who are on the committee of UK Chess Academy?

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