"SavetheUKCC" petition

[John Upham]

thanks John - will you be at this meeting?

http://www.insolvencylist.com/details.p ... al=1148643

Possibly...Will you?

Hands up who is going...

(I seem to be having a David Pardoe moment so I should check my keyboard is not generating an ellipsis for no reason)

[John Swain]

Mike Basman has recruited Tim Farron, the Liberal Democrat leader, to his cause:

http://www.delanceyukschoolschesschalle ... nBoard.pdf

[Roger de Coverly]

Mike Basman has recruited Tim Farron, the Liberal Democrat leader, to his cause:

I'm not really sure there's any change to its tax status. Organisations with turnover exceeding the VAT limit have always been subject to tax. With the exception of the ECF and UKCC, chess organisations have been able to structure themselves to remain below the limit.

It's also been pointed out that even if chess had a VAT privileged position, such an exemption might not apply to a competition which classified itself as a commercial enterprise.

[NickFaulks]

Mike Basman has recruited Tim Farron, the Liberal Democrat leader, to his cause:

I'm not really sure there's any change to its tax status. Organisations with turnover exceeding the VAT limit have always been subject to tax. With the exception of the ECF and UKCC, chess organisations have been able to structure themselves to remain below the limit.

It's also been pointed out that even if chess had a VAT privileged position, such an exemption might not apply to a competition which classified itself as a commercial enterprise.

Such factual input was long ago left behind.

[Andrew Zigmond]

Mike Basman has recruited Tim Farron, the Liberal Democrat leader, to his cause:

http://www.delanceyukschoolschesschalle ... nBoard.pdf

It does seem that Mr Farron was replying as a constituency MP rather than as the leader of the Liberal Democrats. It's an important distinction. I also think that the address of the parent who wrote should have been redacted when publishing the letter on the website.

[JustinHorton]

This tax hike is entirely imaginary, yes?

[Andrew Varney]

I have been asked by Mike Basman to post the following message on his behalf:

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“Alan Kennedy is one of the more level headed of the Forumites. An ex-accountant, he nonetheless recognises the shortcomings of his profession. He produces some remarkable statistics; from his post on page 25 of Save the UKCC on 18th September, 2016 he states: ‘… building a small business is extremely difficult which is why only 1 in 2 last more than two years and only 1 in 10 get to the 10th year’. That would make the UK Chess Challenge, which has lasted 21 years, with a turnover well over the VAT threshold, one of the most successful small businesses in the country. This statistic should give some of the Forum critics pause for thought.

The reason for the high death-rate of small business is partly due to how hard it is to earn a living through trade; it may also be due to the excessive regulations imposed.

When I set up the UK Chess Challenge it was based on the premise “Least possible work for teachers” – who I regarded as an overworked, oppressed group. The tax office should have the same approach – most possible revenue, least possible work for the taxpayer. But they ignore this, piling pointless procedure upon pointless procedure, then trivialize or underplay the amount of work they impose. They then try to elevate taxation to a moral imperative: anyone who opens a business has to comply with tax regulations and the additional work. Here they misunderstand the true nature of commercial relationships. To take an example from our childhoods, we have the tale of Cinderella, where the seller (Cinderella) needs to find a buyer (the Prince). In this scenario the Ugly Sisters are represented by the taxmen and accountants. They think that the story is all about them so they banish Cinders to the kitchens and make a slave of her, then put every obstacle between her and the prince, even trying to shoe-horn themselves into the marriage bed.

A remark by Alan Kennedy on the Forum reveals this true attitude by accountants and tax officers towards small businesses. ‘… if you do not want these responsibilities you do not have to go into business - no one forced Mike Basman to start the UKCC and so in that sense he is not a slave and could have ceased trading if he did not like the idea of collecting tax for free.’

Yes, of course, he could have laid down and died or left the country. Running a business is a natural activity; it is not something to be penalised or hijacked. An analogy will ram this point home.

Home owner: “Policeman! Policeman! Why is it that whenever I leave my house I get mugged?”

Policeman (raising himself to his full height): “Madam, may I remind you that nobody forced you to come and live in this area.”

Theresa May has pointed out that there is a whole swathe of society which she describes as the “struggling classes”, who voted Leave in the referendum. These she promises to listen to. But I fear she underestimates the sheer size of the privileged groups in society, the wealthier and professional classes, who are in complete denial as to the extent and nature of the exploitation from which they benefit. Members of the Forum may point out that they themselves are not well off, so perhaps they resemble more the lags of the ancien regime sinking further into debt and penury, but anxious to retain the trappings of their power. Other Forumites are now even chess teachers themselves, earning their living as small businessmen or self-employed. They may have abandoned their erstwhile professions, but it is harder for them relinquish their previous mind sets and attitudes.”

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Please note that any views or opinions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and may not represent
those of the person posting the message on either a professional or personal basis.

[Carl Hibbard]

Oh dear he isn't going to let vat go is he.

[NickFaulks]

Toxic.

[JustinHorton]

I have been asked by Mike Basman to post the following message on his behalf

"No, do it yourself" would have been a good reply.

[Alan Kennedy]

“Alan Kennedy is one of the more level headed of the Forumites. An ex-accountant, he nonetheless recognises the shortcomings of his profession. He produces some remarkable statistics; from his post on page 25 of Save the UKCC on 18th September, 2016 he states: ‘… building a small business is extremely difficult which is why only 1 in 2 last more than two years and only 1 in 10 get to the 10th year’. That would make the UK Chess Challenge, which has lasted 21 years, with a turnover well over the VAT threshold, one of the most successful small businesses in the country. This statistic should give some of the Forum critics pause for thought.

A remark by Alan Kennedy on the Forum reveals this true attitude by accountants and tax officers towards small businesses. ‘… if you do not want these responsibilities you do not have to go into business - no one forced Mike Basman to start the UKCC and so in that sense he is not a slave and could have ceased trading if he did not like the idea of collecting tax for free.’

Yes, of course, he could have laid down and died or left the country. Running a business is a natural activity; it is not something to be penalised or hijacked. An analogy will ram this point home.

Home owner: “Policeman! Policeman! Why is it that whenever I leave my house I get mugged?”

Policeman (raising himself to his full height): “Madam, may I remind you that nobody forced you to come and live in this area.”

Theresa May has pointed out that there is a whole swathe of society which she describes as the “struggling classes”, who voted Leave in the referendum. These she promises to listen to. But I fear she underestimates the sheer size of the privileged groups in society, the wealthier and professional classes, who are in complete denial as to the extent and nature of the exploitation from which they benefit. Members of the Forum may point out that they themselves are not well off, so perhaps they resemble more the lags of the ancien regime sinking further into debt and penury, but anxious to retain the trappings of their power. Other Forumites are now even chess teachers themselves, earning their living as small businessmen or self-employed. They may have abandoned their erstwhile professions, but it is harder for them relinquish their previous mind sets and attitudes.”

Thank you to Andrew for posting Mike's comments. Particular thanks to Mike for the kind words. I would make the following comments:

1 I am definitely not an ex accountant - I still practise and get a buzz out of helping people build businesses!
2 the key to analogy is did the homeowner have a choice about whether he moved into the area or not. Without knowing the facts it is difficult to comment although I would be interested to know if he took advice at all before starting or during the course of the adventure. if Mike took advice and ignored it is his fault. If he did not take advice then there is a measure of contributory negligence. Whatever the conclusion Mike is better than average so should take some comfort from that. Also, unlike the homeowner in his analogy, Mr Basman could have registered for VAT or incorporated, in which point he may not have been open the injuries the home owner suffered.
3 127 people have clicked on the linked to the Monty Python video - so at least i have brought some amusement to forumites http://bit.ly/2d4Fk5z is the link.
4 I still have a great deal of respect for Mike and his abilities - a lot of what I did in Oxfordshire Chess was because of people like Mike Basman. I wanted to give something back. Next time you lose to a talented Witney junior it will in part be Mike Basman's fault! (Also the fault of a lot of other people including Mike Truran et al but that is for another day). He has quite simply left a legacy which is far reaching and more than anyone could have imagined when he started UKCC.
5. I was disappointed that Mike lumped accountants in with taxofficers - the fact i and a lot of other accountants spend time advising clients how to build a business hopefully makes us different. Accountants like all professions come in all shapes and sizes some good some bad so generalities do not always help! Mr Basman may like to see my open letter to David Cameron (my then MP and Prime Minister) http://bit.ly/1OwGSE0 when he significantly increased the burdens on small business shortly after the election. My most proud moment was when one of my competitors described me as extrovert and creative http://bit.ly/2cnw6Ro - surely that is different from HMRC!
6. Andrew I am pleased to see you are helping Mike Basman - he no doubt needs all the support he can get.

[Alan Kennedy]

I have been asked by Mike Basman to post the following message on his behalf

"No, do it yourself" would have been a good reply.

I would invite you to show some kindness.

[JustinHorton]

Because, in obvious symbolism news, the rest of us can be bothered to do so.

[Michael Farthing]

Ah right..

We do it this way, so so must you. Because there are more of us than you (and of course we have been here longer) so we must be right and you must be wrong. Poppycock.

[JustinHorton]

Ah right..

We do it this way, so so must you. Because there are more of us than you (and of course we have been here longer) so we must be right and you must be wrong. Poppycock.

Oh absolutely spare me the sanctimony Michael. Keep it for a better cause eh.