"SavetheUKCC" petition

National developments, strategies and ideas.
Andrew Martin
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Re: "SavetheUKCC" petition

Post by Andrew Martin » Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:31 am

Hello Dragons.

I'm looking for £350,000 for 1% of the business and I'll chuck in a few cuddly toys as well.

John Upham
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Re: "SavetheUKCC" petition

Post by John Upham » Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:04 pm

Carl Hibbard wrote:I assumed Malcom and CSC would take it on?
For that to be true then their bid would need to be the highest and they would want to include MJB for business continuity.
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Alan Kennedy
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Re: "SavetheUKCC" petition

Post by Alan Kennedy » Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:51 pm

thanks - have been absent but have the following comments:



a. the key in vat is who is supplying what to whom. One then has to ask can the recipient reclaim the vat. I would stress that not only am i not an insolvency expert or a vat specialist particualrly as I took a commercial decision to avoid charities and not for profits a couple of years back. However reading the very helpful publication by HMRC on vat on education and seeing Nick Grey's posts I suggest:

b. Mike Basman is supplying a taxable supply the businesss is potentially supplying a taxable supply as it is over the registration threshold and chess has not been exempted nor has the sale of fluffy bunnies etc.
c. the general principle is that the supply of education by eligible bodies is exempt. For independents this means that they can't reclaim the vat. (paragraph 41 of the guide https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... l-training refers. The local authority can only reclaim the vat charged if it is normal mainstream education as paragraph 10 points out . If therefore the parents pay the entry fees the local authority would in any event have to charge vat because it is not "exempt education". To come under the exemption the service supplied has be closely related to the education and I doubt whether the UKCC would be inclued even if the fees were paid by the local authority without any input from the parents. This is I think the point Nick Grey is making - Nick will no doubt correct me if i have got it wrong!.
d as been pointed out most of the income comes from the megafinals where the supply is direct to the parents (ditto sponsorship) so no one can claim the VAT.
e. I would caution against business splitting to avoid vat - HMRC really hate it and you need to know what you are doing if you want to stay safe.
f if the above where not bad enough - I strongly suspect that anyone buying the UKCC will be seen as acquiring a business as a going concern. To quote from HMRC on the issue

The business, or part business, must be a ‘going concern’ at the time of the transfer. It can still be a ‘going concern’ even though it is unprofitable, or is trading under the control of a liquidator or administrative receiver, or a trustee in bankruptcy, or an administrator appointed under the Insolvency Act 1986.

this means anyone buying the business will probably have to immediately register for VAT unless they wish to challenge the HMRC view. they may be able to argue they can then deregister if turnover is going to be below the limit but it is not guaranteed. For those of you who are thinking "how can a bankrupt business be a going concern" I share your view but HMRC would say "if it is not a going concern why are you buying it!"

So in summary on the school is unlikely to be able to reclaim the vat unless they are a local authority and pay for the tournament and fluffy bunnies and can show it closely related to education.

For those of you are totally bemused by the whole process I would say the following:

you are not alone - there are a lot of people who know nothing about vat - you can tell who they are - they are the happy ones.

when vat first came in it was described as "the bookkeepers tax" - anyone who has read about vat and education (or worse still vat and buildings) know that is a complete lie

if I was facing a similar situation I would probably take a second opinion from a specialist just to make sure. The sums involved are usually large enough to warrant a cautious approach.

As regards who ever is purchasing the UK CC ask yourself the question- why would I pay for a business that allegedly did not make money and Also do not invest unless you can afford to lose the money - sometimes acquisitions have a habit of going wrong.

The usual caveats apply - take independent advice before proceeding. I expect the suitors have their own accountants so they are well advised to speak to them.

Notwithstanding all of the above - I hope someone manages to pull of the rescue.

Gareth T Ellis
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Re: "SavetheUKCC" petition

Post by Gareth T Ellis » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:14 pm

John Upham » Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:45 am

A number of bids have been registered in compliance with the deadline.

A veritable potpourri of names from the English and Welsh chess scenes have created teams of investors.

It would have been interesting to take the business model into Dragon's Den!

Some bidders have been asked to revise their bids.

There is a range of investors some of whom clearly are supporters of junior chess, some are more commercially minded and looking to grow the business.

We await the deliberations of the trustee following the revised bids.

At least two former British Champions are involved.
Revise their bids ? I thought this was highest sealed bid wins, John can you explain why some have been asked to revise them ?

Meanwhile more damage gets done : http://www.ukchesschallenge.com/docs/Wh ... normal.pdf


Whoever eventually gets it I hope they can repair the damage and take it forward, put something back into junior chess so megafinal qualifiers aren't losing to scholars mate, know how to castle properly, can mate with at least R or Q unfortunately these still happen.

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Re: "SavetheUKCC" petition

Post by John Upham » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:24 pm

I believe that the ownership migration is in the final stages subject to confirmation from the Trustee.

Revised bids were requested in order to maximise the revenue to HMRC.

Entry forms are likely to be posted during the week following half-term.
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NickFaulks
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Re: "SavetheUKCC" petition

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:41 pm

Gareth T Ellis wrote: Meanwhile more damage gets done : http://www.ukchesschallenge.com/docs/Wh ... normal.pdf
You have to wonder whether Basman does not wish to see UKCC fall into other hands and is poisoning the well.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

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Re: "SavetheUKCC" petition

Post by John Upham » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:51 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Gareth T Ellis wrote: Meanwhile more damage gets done : http://www.ukchesschallenge.com/docs/Wh ... normal.pdf
You have to wonder whether Basman does not wish to see UKCC fall into other hands and is poisoning the well.
On the contrary, Mike very much needs new owners to enable him to continue his work with UKCC and maintain some kind of income.

No doubt the new owners will take a view on what gets published on the official UKCC web site and what might need to be removed.
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Gareth T Ellis
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Re: "SavetheUKCC" petition

Post by Gareth T Ellis » Sun Oct 23, 2016 2:36 pm

Revised bids were requested in order to maximise the revenue to HMRC.
Bidding on : website, database of schools, virtually no other assets (few clocks & sets/boards) and alot of bad PR.

Most of the work is done by local volunteers (teachers and then regional organisers), some Megafinal organisers depending upon who buys it are talking about going back to running their own events or want an increase in their share of the entry fee.

I hope the remaining bidders have included this in their decision.

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Re: "SavetheUKCC" petition

Post by John Upham » Sun Oct 23, 2016 2:57 pm

Gareth T Ellis wrote:
Most of the work is done by local volunteers (teachers and then regional organisers), some Megafinal organisers depending upon who buys it are talking about going back to running their own events or want an increase in their share of the entry fee.
As far as I know the intention is to focus on business continuity and inherit as many of the existing organisers as possible. The UKCC relies on enormous amounts of goodwill and commitment from those who believe in the principle, philosophy and structure of the event.

Anyone is able (and welcome) to run a chess tournament at the county level for children but only the UKCC has the progression from

Schools Stage -> Megafinal -> Gigafinal -> Terafinal as far as children and parents are concerned.

If this development results in more junior chess then so much the better.

A Megafinal on its own without input from the schools stages and without output to the Gigafinals is not a Megafinal, it is merely another junior tournament.

Calling a event a "Megafinal" may not be simply misleading but it may also transgress Trademark and Copyright legislation.
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Gareth T Ellis
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Re: "SavetheUKCC" petition

Post by Gareth T Ellis » Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:11 pm

Some regions stopped running their own county/regional championships as UKCC grew, they would only be bringing these back.

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Re: "SavetheUKCC" petition

Post by John Upham » Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:15 pm

Gareth T Ellis wrote:Some regions stopped running their own county/regional championships as UKCC grew, they would only be bringing these back.

I'm sure they would be very welcome regardless of UKCC: the more chess events the merrier! :D
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Paul McKeown
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Re: "SavetheUKCC" petition

Post by Paul McKeown » Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:35 pm

John Upham wrote:Calling a event a "Megafinal" may not be simply misleading but it may also transgress Trademark and Copyright legislation.
John, you're more intelligent than that. Nothing is trademarked, not that anyone is likely to try to steal the show. It may well be one of the first things the new owners will have to consider.

Neil Graham
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Re: "SavetheUKCC" petition

Post by Neil Graham » Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:45 pm

Gareth T Ellis wrote:
Revised bids were requested in order to maximise the revenue to HMRC.
Bidding on : website, database of schools, virtually no other assets (few clocks & sets/boards) and alot of bad PR.

Most of the work is done by local volunteers (teachers and then regional organisers), some Megafinal organisers depending upon who buys it are talking about going back to running their own events or want an increase in their share of the entry fee.

I hope the remaining bidders have included this in their decision.
Firstly many thanks to John for keeping the forum updated on this. There are plenty of imponderables that we aren't aware of but to add to Gareth's list whoever takes this on has an event with no proper accounts where the owner has huge debts and has issued a series of ridiculous press releases under the cover of the event sponsor. If I were involved with this, my first action would be to thank Mike Basman for his work in the past make whatever gesture was appropriate in terms of a payment and dispense with his services.

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Re: "SavetheUKCC" petition

Post by John Upham » Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:58 pm

Paul McKeown wrote:
John Upham wrote:Calling a event a "Megafinal" may not be simply misleading but it may also transgress Trademark and Copyright legislation.
John, you're more intelligent than that. Nothing is trademarked, not that anyone is likely to try to steal the show. It may well be one of the first things the new owners will have to consider.
Correct, zero UKCC IPR and assets are currently trademarked, copyrighted or any way protected.

I was predicting the situation at the time that Megafinals will take place next (May 2017).
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John Upham
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Re: "SavetheUKCC" petition

Post by John Upham » Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:00 pm

Neil Graham wrote: If I were involved with this, my first action would be to thank Mike Basman for his work in the past make whatever gesture was appropriate in terms of a payment and dispense with his services.
Meetings took place this weekend with the new owners plus Mike and Pat.

The new owners very much (correctly IMHO) wish them to be on board (as do I). :D
Last edited by John Upham on Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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