English Primary Schools Chess Association

National developments, strategies and ideas.
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David Shepherd
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by David Shepherd » Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:26 pm

Richard, thanks for your quick reply, I have a feeling that a number of people outside of the Richmond area wrongly view the Richmond team as being just RJCC, the club itself being so well known and so strong, with both the area team and club being called Richmond.

Richard James
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by Richard James » Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:34 pm

David Shepherd wrote: Ps I noticed above that a point was raised about follow on from the U11 teams, I would like to point out that when I was organising the Surrey junior teams for the older age range, the organisers of RJCC were most helpful in identifying which of their players were eligible to play in the Surrey teams and more than happy for their qualifying players to be selected and play for Surrey in the county competitions. In turn I was very happy to select their players and tried to give as many players from the whole of Surrey as many opportunities to play as I could. The co-operation of the Richmond organisers made this goal far easier to achieve so thanks are due to them.
Many thanks.

We always try to work closely and co-operatively with other organisers. We also find that other areas, such as Wey Valley, are very helpful in cases where children who are RJCC members but go to school outside our boroughs, want to play for Richmond.

Paul McKeown
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by Paul McKeown » Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:42 pm

David Sedgwick - thank you for your strong support in this matter and for laying out why central interference in historically delegated matters can do damage even if well meaning.

David Shepherd - as Richard has said, our teams are composed of those attend and those who do not attend RJCC. As David has pointed out, EPSCA Associations have agreed areas of responsibility. In Richmond's case, these comprise 6 London boroughs, Richmond & Twickenham, Hounslow, Wandsworth, Merton, Hammersmith & Fulham and Kensington & Chelsea. Our teams must be made of children who are normally resident in those boroughs, or who attend schools in those boroughs.

Additionally, children from unincorporated local authorities which are directly adjacent to those incorporated within the responsibility of an Association may play for such an Association. In Richmond's case, those local authorities include Hillingdon, Ealing, the City of Westminster. There may be others, I would have to study a map.

In any case, EPSCA's rules allow for children who have strong and demonstrable affiliation to play outside of their natural area, provided that the parties concerned can come to a mutual agreement. In Richmond's case, a number of children who regularly attend RJCC have come from the Spelthorne area, which is within Wey Valley's natural purview. However the Wey Valley organiser, has never had a problem with this and has always politely accepted our requests to allow these children to play for the Richmond teams. Indeed, last year we were asked if we would like Spelthorne to be transferred to Richmond; we declined, as we felt that the existing arrangements work well. A few years back, one of our parents got quite aereated as some children from the Richmond area were playing for Kent. We politely requested the parent concerned to relax, as the children concerned attend Kent's excellent Grand Prix events and coaching sessions. The organisers of the Associations know each other and have no intention of ruining a system that works well as it currently stands. RJCC itself has members who play or have played for Wey Valley, Barnet, Berkshire and Kent, besides the Richmond team. We find that entirely natural and have no complaints.

Richmond's selection policy is that children whose grade is above a high cut-off are automatically included in the team. A certain number of places are reserved to club members and the remaining places are filled by performance in qualifying tournaments.

Finally, I should point that the same boundaries and considerations apply to our places in the NYCA and SCCU competitions.

I hope this answers your question!
Last edited by Paul McKeown on Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

Mike Truran
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by Mike Truran » Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:58 pm

I'm trying to curb my addiction to Diet Coke, at least temporarily, by giving it up for Lent. :shock:

Hence I'm currently suffering from the effects of going cold turkey. :x
Heavens above, man. Less than a day in and you're already slaughtering and devouring babies. :shock: I shudder to think what you'll be like after the regulation 40 days. :shock: :shock:

More seriously, I think there is a real problem here (which Paul's most recent post highlights). One the one hand, people are often critical of the ECF for what they perceive as interference in matters outside its jurisdiction. One the other hand, people are often critical of the ECF for what they perceive as failure to get involved in other matters, even when it's by no means clear that those matters actually lie within the ECF's jurisdiction.

I have no easy answers, and no doubt we (and by "we" I mean English chess generally, and not just the ECF) are where we are for good historical reasons. But if the ECF is no more and no less than the sum of its constituent members, it seems a bit of a shame that we can't all work better together.

Paul McKeown
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by Paul McKeown » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:07 pm

Mike, I wasn't aware that we weren't working well together, until I discovered someone's utopian ideas for reconstructing something that already works. At Richmond, the children's interests come first; whichever team they wish to play for is their concern, no one else's.

Mike Truran
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by Mike Truran » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:14 pm

I suspect that if we were all working together as well as you think, English chess wouldn't be lagging as far behind other countries as it is. But I do recognise that views will differ on this, so there's maybe little point my getting involved in further exchanges which may generate more heat than light.

Mick Norris
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by Mick Norris » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:23 pm

Paul McKeown wrote:I am not sure where Tameside is, nor who its organisers are. I am happy, personally, to go there for a week in the summer to help them set up a post primary structure, should they be interested. Some help with regard to travel and subsistence would be welcome in that case.
Tameside is on the east side of Manchester; it is south of Oldham (which is in Greater Manchester for chess purposes as well as in reality) and is 1 of the 3 junior chess areas within Greater Manchester

Unfortunately, Tameside thinks it is still in Lancashire for chess purposes, so the juniors would presumably disappear into the Lancs system post primary
Last edited by Mick Norris on Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Any postings on here represent my personal views

Paul McKeown
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by Paul McKeown » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:24 pm

I have to say, Mike, I was completely unaware that anyone would even consider changing the composition of the EPSCA Inter-Association Championship. Perhaps there are other strange ideas being floated that I am equally blissfully unaware of.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by Michael Farthing » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:33 pm

Paul,

You do seem to be taking over-much to heart what appears to have been a fairly off the cuff remark made in private to a Richmond person which hs only become known because you have advertised it. Alex has given his reasons (which may be good, bad, indifferent or whatever) but which remain reasons for expressing a point of view: there seems no evidence that he was speaking for ECF policy or even his own policy as a director. His comments here seem to suggest that though he thinks a change in approach would be generally healthy he is not pushing it, and in any case has indicated that there are alternatives that could be reasonably considered in place of the tradiional 'county' divisions.

Why the heat?

Michael Flatt
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by Michael Flatt » Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:11 pm

Given the current interest in the EPSCA Inter-Association Team Championships, which commence next month, I recommend visiting the EPSCA website: http://www.epsca.org.uk/team-champ.html#introduction

The Competition Rules are set by EPSCA Council where I am sure any suggestions for change can be debated and voted upon.

Junior chess in England is managed by different organisations than those of Adult chess because very few Clubs and County Associations are able to satisfactorily combine the different requirements of Adult and Junior players. Evening Leagues, with their late finishing times and away matches in distant places are designed for adults rather than children.

It is different, however, in one day rapidplays and weekend congresses where both categories of player can be accommodated and at Golders Green, for instance, increasingly the juniors are winning the prizes.

Organisers design tournaments to satisfy particular groups of players. This year EPSCA are celebrating their 50th anniversary which suggests to me they must be doing something right.

David Sedgwick
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:06 pm

Mike Truran wrote:More seriously, I think there is a real problem here (which Paul's most recent post highlights). One the one hand, people are often critical of the ECF for what they perceive as interference in matters outside its jurisdiction. One the other hand, people are often critical of the ECF for what they perceive as failure to get involved in other matters, even when it's by no means clear that those matters actually lie within the ECF's jurisdiction.
If that really is the situation, then the solution is easy.

All you need to do is to ask the Directors to stop interfering in matters in the first category and to devote their energies to enabling the ECF to address and deal with matters in the second category.

If there is no consensus as to which matters fall within which category, then I accept that you have more of a problem.

Paul Cooksey
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by Paul Cooksey » Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:14 pm

Mike Truran wrote:I have no easy answers, and no doubt we (and by "we" I mean English chess generally, and not just the ECF) are where we are for good historical reasons. But if the ECF is no more and no less than the sum of its constituent members, it seems a bit of a shame that we can't all work better together.
This is why I bang on about the importance of the ECF strategy. My understanding is strategy is especially important in the voluntary sector, when it is impractical to just tell people to do what you want, but you do still want everyone to be pulling in the same direction.

It isn't a particularly easy job to come up with the criteria, but mapping how aligned each organisation is to ECF objectives and coming up with the appropriate carrot or stick to encourage them to be more aligned seems to me a thing only the ECF can do. I'd want to be doing a management consultant style quadrant analysis and so on.

But maybe I'm not being practical. People seem to become, for example, Home Director of the ECF because they want to organise events, rather than to do a management job. Indeed - pace David who I acknowledge is much closer to the facts than me - the ECF seems to conclude anyone who does not prioritise organisation over management is a wrong 'un. That might be bad luck, but it might also indicate the organisation doesn't want to change.

Mike Truran
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by Mike Truran » Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:28 pm

If there is no consensus as to which matters fall within which category, then I accept that you have more of a problem.
If I had thought there was a consensus I wouldn't have said what I said. That was my point.
That might be bad luck, but it might also indicate the organisation doesn't want to change.
Well, that depends at least in part on what your view as to who and what comprise "the organisation".

Michael Flatt
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by Michael Flatt » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:58 pm

With regards to understanding the jurisdiction of the ECF I would recommend consulting the ECF Memorandum & Articles of Association [1,2]; it sets out the Objectives of the ECF which is the basis of everything it does.

In matters of International Chess, the ECF is recognised as the English National Federation by the World Chess Authority and as such is responsible for processing of registration of players in FIDE rated events and endorsing all applications for International titles for players, arbiters and trainers.

So, although the ECF cannot claim direct authority over any of the various independent English chess organisations, it does provide essential services upon which they all depend, such as: the ECF grading scheme, appointment of National Arbiters and all matters to do with International Chess (FIDE).

[1] ECF Memorandum: http://www.englishchess.org.uk/wp-conte ... 0365_1.doc
[2] ECF Article: http://www.englishchess.org.uk/wp-conte ... 729_1.docx

Mick Norris
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Re: English Primary Schools Chess Association

Post by Mick Norris » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:28 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:Indeed - pace David who I acknowledge is much closer to the facts than me - the ECF seems to conclude anyone who does not prioritise organisation over management is a wrong 'un.
That's not limited to the ECF, or indeed just to voluntary organisations within chess, in my experience
Any postings on here represent my personal views

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