Surrey County Junior Selectors?

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Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Surrey County Junior Selectors?

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:40 pm

"I totally agree that Wey Valley are not a Surrey County Chess Association team. However as far as I am aware the closest competition to a County competition in the U11 age group is the EPSCA event and the rules of that event seem to me to clearly state that Wey Valley is the Surrey team plus the London Borough of Kingston(LBK). CCF are not in the EPSCA event and Richmond covers London Boroughs not Surrey. Logically it might be simpler if LBK were part of the Richmond team which could then renamed London South West and Wey Valley could be renamed Surrey but it's just not going to happen."

It does not matter if EPSCA call "Wey Valley" "Surrey" - they have no right to do so! CCF were not allowed to join EPSCA, (either because CCF aren't a county or aren't a LEA, but probably truthfully that they're just unpopular) so cannot play in EPSCA events.

As someone said earlier, the most important thing is that juniors play chess. I don't see the problem with WV and RJCC playing under their own names.

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David Shepherd
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Re: Surrey County Junior Selectors?

Post by David Shepherd » Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:59 pm

John Upham wrote:I spoke with Pat Armstrong yesterday who informed me that Wey Valley acts on behalf for the entire county of Surrey and she selects the U9 and U11 EPSCA teams with the direction of Mike Basman.

To be considered for selection for Surrey regardless of where in Surrey one lives the child MUST enter and play in Wey Valley events organised by Pat and Mike. If you do not play in these events you cannot be considered for selection and essentially it is down to Mike to decide which U9 and U11 players represent Surrey.

That is my understanding.
Yes that is my understanding too, so for example there was an U9 team selection event - the results of which are here http://www.weyvalleychess.org.uk/Tourna ... U12C17.pdf. If a child wants to play for the U9 team they should enter that event. If a player had regularly played and done well in Wey Valley tournaments, but was for example unable to play in the selection event due to illness, I don't think Pat and Mike would be unreasonable. One advantage of selection events is that they can be useful for comparing players, but a disadvantage is that any player can just have an "off day".

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John Upham
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Re: Surrey County Junior Selectors?

Post by John Upham » Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:01 pm

Paul McKeown wrote: "Surrey" does not participate in EPSCA.
For the record (and I realise what we have here is a rudderless ship) Pat A. told me last night that Wey Valley runs the U9 and U11 EPSCA teams on behalf of "Surrey".

I did not ask what Pat meant by Surrey but by inference I think she meant Surrey County Council rather than Surrey County Chess Association.

If I am confused then what must it be like for parents? :lol:
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David Shepherd
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Re: Surrey County Junior Selectors?

Post by David Shepherd » Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:16 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:" I don't see the problem with WV and RJCC playing under their own names.
Unfortunately I think this sentence sums up the problem - as highlighted higher up, it isn't RJCC :(, but I personally don't have a huge problem with the names.

Nick Grey
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Re: Surrey County Junior Selectors?

Post by Nick Grey » Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:22 pm

Some wild assumptions here & missing some of the points of my earlier posts.
I think you will find that Mike Basman took legal action against SCCA. So there may not have been a lot of support for his chess activities. I cannot remember if Wey Valley got caught up in the crossfire.

I think parents in the area will have bigger things to worry about than chess - not least with cuts in schools budgets in future years, and likelihood of asking for contributions from parents for the schools budget, let alone these type of activities - likely to charge those using facilities more.

Anyone that works in education on finance and admissions sides know that parents can apply from anywhere. My children went to Kingston Primary Schools both of them went to a Secondary School in Surrey County Council - in Epsom but that is not a LEA. This is all from the Greenwich judgement in 1991. I have worked in an Inner London Borough since 1984 so am well aware of functions transferring from GLC to ILEA.

But John I do not have a problem understanding the various websites & posts you are referring too. So if you are representing parents give them advice as offered.

Yes junior chess has changed a lot, but then again the costs associated and charges to parents has increased astronomically in my opinion.

I received no charges for representing my school, if I played in a congress I paid a junior entry fee from my pocket money. I was playing rugby for the school most weekends but Evening Standard was over Christmas period and some congresses in the summer term. No such luxury as an oyster card or free London travel then so I had to budget for public transport too. Borrowed chess books from public libraries, etc.

Other than that WV & RJCC are playing under their own names, with their own rules. Best of luck with Hampshire.

Mike Gunn
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Re: Surrey County Junior Selectors?

Post by Mike Gunn » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:22 am

Just to correct some of the above:

1. There is no ambiguity about what "Surrey" means in chess terms. It is defined in our constitution as the current county of Surrey plus the London Boroughs of Croydon, Kingston-upon-Thames, Lambeth, Merton, Richmond-upon-Thames, Southwark, Sutton and Wandsworth. (Geographically Surrey in our year of formation: 1883). (See also Middlesex, Essex and Kent).

2. Junior chess in Surrey is run mainly by a number of autonomous organisations with the SCCA filling in the gaps. There has generally been a close and cooperative relationship between the SCCA and these organisations, e.g. with representatives attending and reporting to our AGMs even though most organisations are not affiliated to us. I can understand that the situation may appear unusual to people new to the scene but we have recently produced an explanation on our website: http://www.scca.co.uk/jun/jun_index.html. As Kevin comments above: the key thing is that we have lots of juniors playing chess in Surrey - somehow the current arrangements work!

3. Mike Basman did once send us a solicitor's letter, but he has never sued us.

(Mike Gunn, SCCA President).

David Sedgwick
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Re: Surrey County Junior Selectors?

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:37 pm

Mike Gunn wrote:
1. There is no ambiguity about what "Surrey" means in chess terms. It is defined in our constitution as the current county of Surrey plus the London Boroughs of Croydon, Kingston-upon-Thames, Lambeth, Merton, Richmond-upon-Thames, Southwark, Sutton and Wandsworth. (Geographically Surrey in our year of formation: 1883). (See also Middlesex, Essex and Kent).
Mike, I believe I am right in saying that that definition is for internal purposes, such as the right of clubs to affiliate to the SCCA.

The part of the London Borough of Richmond-upon-Thames north of the River Thames is generally considered to be in Middlesex, a view which I think the SCCA accepts. Certainly it would have been in Middlesex in 1883.
Last edited by David Sedgwick on Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Surrey County Junior Selectors?

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:44 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:The part of the London Borough of Richmond north of the River Thames is generally considered to be in Middlesex, a view which I think the SCCA accepts. Certainly it would have been in Middlesex in 1883.
If you are using 1883 definitions, yes ("Since 1965 various areas called Middlesex have been used for cricket and other sports."). Though the London Borough of Richmond upon Thames didn't exist in 1883. Apparently it was formed in 1965 from the Municipal Borough of Twickenham (formed 1868), the Municipal Borough of Richmond (formed 1890) and the Municipal Borough of Barnes (formed 1894). The history of the boundary changes, mergers and other geographical permutations is fascinating. I wonder if the chess world in the 1890s worried as much about eligibilities and boundaries as people do now? :)

Mike Gunn
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Re: Surrey County Junior Selectors?

Post by Mike Gunn » Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:49 pm

Yes, Surrey goes up to the River Thames (but does not cross it). I used to have a pair of digital maps for East and West Surrey which would have been valid for 1883 but sadly I can't find either of them now either on the internet or any of the ancient laptops I have hung on to. In recent years the boundaries have been treated in a rather flexible fashion with regard to affiliations. When I was a county captain we had an arrangement with Richmond Juniors where for the purposes of county chess south of the river juniors were directed towards Surrey and north of the river juniors were directed towards Middlesex.

Nick Grey
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Re: Surrey County Junior Selectors?

Post by Nick Grey » Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:02 pm

No issues with Richmond where the old parliament constituency 1965 included North Kingston - it is now Richmond Park and Kingston.
On affiliation quite clear from time to time Richmond Chess Club have played chess South of the River. I doubt whether RJCC ever affiliated to SCCA.

Also aware of the pack drill - receive a call from parent get the details & pass on the details of the local junior clubs & contacts - it helps knowing when open. Also aware of Thames Valley League & changes.

As a former captain I'm quite aware of the Surrey junior database & protocols.

If John is serious he ought to be speaking to his parents & schools about their entry into UK delancey chess challenge - also take junior clubs - entries open 13 March. Whatever is best for the parents & child.

Some of the clubs & organisations in far parts of Surrey play in Borders, may have links with Berks - John runs websites for at least Borders so may get help there. On Berks the ECF rep is also EPSCA rep, he is also Thames Valley's rep.

Also completely aware of our own internal clubs outside these definitions but approved by SCCA at our meetings.

Richmond and Kingston have merged a number of services so boundaries are changing whether we like it or not.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Surrey County Junior Selectors?

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:43 pm

I'm pretty sure that Richmond has played in SCCA competitions.

Nick Grey
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Re: Surrey County Junior Selectors?

Post by Nick Grey » Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:33 pm

Has RJCC played in SCCA competitions?

Richard James
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Re: Surrey County Junior Selectors?

Post by Richard James » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:02 pm

Nick Grey wrote:Has RJCC played in SCCA competitions?
Yes - at present we play in everything which isn't specifically inter-county.
SCCU website wrote: At the 1998 Annual General Meeting, the General Rules were changed in order to enable chess organisations other than County Associations to be admitted to membership and to enjoy appropriate rights of representation. Currently there are six non-county members: Berkshire Junior Chess Association; Chess in Schools and Communities; Hastings International Congress; Oxfordshire Juniors; Richmond Junior Chess Club and Thanet Chess League. The Union has a continuing goal to enhance the number of members.
SCCU website wrote: In addition it organises three events, which are now open to teams from both county and non-county members:
     (a) one or more Under 18 events, held annually on a jamboree basis
     (b) a season-long team competition for players aged under 14 and graded under 130
     (c) Annual U185 and U150 jamborees
We are taking part in (a), which we will also be hosting, and (b) this season.

Nick Grey
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Re: Surrey County Junior Selectors?

Post by Nick Grey » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:57 pm

SCCU competitions not a SCCA competition.

Yes I am aware of these non-county arrangements.

A bit unfortunate timing with U180 & U140s playing plus Surrey U14/130 on March 11 - anyway we cannot have everything.

I m grateful for all the work at RJCC and Richmond Chess Club - recently spent 45 minutes walking in dark until someone mentioned parking meters & school.

At least it is light on Saturday afternoons at RJCC.

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