Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

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Leonard Barden
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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by Leonard Barden » Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:02 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:33 pm
Good to hear it, Leonard, although - unless I've missed something - that wasn't apparent in the BBC report I cited.
It's clear from the Guardian report above which was posted immediately before your own first post:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... -in-the-uk

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:18 pm

Leonard Barden wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:02 pm
It's clear from the Guardian report above which was posted immediately before your own first post:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... -in-the-uk
Absolutely, no criticism of The Guardian, it's simply that not all who follow the BBC news site also read The Guardian.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:08 pm

J T Melsom wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:55 pm
it would be nice if there were greater freedom of movement. It would be nice if young children were not subject to upheaval of this type. But given the state of immigration policy at present I cannot see a special talent at chess being worthy of prioritisation or exemption. The ECF would be advised to stay out of the debate in my view.
Completely disagree.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

J T Melsom
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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by J T Melsom » Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:22 pm

Why do you totally disagree. It seems to me that although the system is broken, the chess community would be divided both on whether to tighten or liberalise, but also on whether favouritism in any system should be given to exceptionally talented chess players. This is no different to those who play chess and don't wish it to be a sport. The ECF can verify the claims about the individual but I'm not sure it should campaign beyond that simply because I don't think chess players should be a priority. I come from a town where one of the streets is Windrush Close, would the ECF make representations if members of the Windrush generation were members of local chess clubs? The trouble with these sort of campaigns is that one is unwittingly caught up in a debate about certain people being the right sort of immigrant - I suspect there will be different views on that as well. By all means campaign to change the law, but don't maker chess players a special case.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by Michael Farthing » Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:40 pm

I see J T's point, but it is not unreasonable in my view for an organisation to make representations on behalf of its members without it needing to become an issue of politcial principle or direction. It is fairly similar perhaps to the establsihed legal approach that all accused people are entitled to have representation, however obvious or extreme their crimes, and that the representation should seek to provide the best possible arguments on behalf of that accused person. Intervention on that basis seems quite reasonable to me as a natural service that an organisation can offer to its members.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:07 pm

"Absolutely, no criticism of The Guardian, it's simply that not all who follow the BBC news site also read The Guardian."

Really, why not?

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:54 pm

I too see JT's point but the logical extension of his argument seems to be that, if this country happened to have a Nobel Prize-winning scientist who earned only (say) £75,000 a year, then he or she would also be at risk of deportation notwithstanding the clear loss to the country. That's a perfectly tenable viewpoint although most people would probably disagree, particularly if his or her work was in a field where lives were at risk. Otherwise, it's simply a question of where one draws the line - who is worthy of being an exception and who, unfortunately, isn't.

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:31 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:07 pm
"Absolutely, no criticism of The Guardian, it's simply that not all who follow the BBC news site also read The Guardian." Really, why not?
I always feel it's a shade unfair to criticise something I never, or hardly ever, read.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:24 pm

The approach of successive governments towards chess has been:
  • Charge the national governing bodies VAT
  • Spend money fighting court cases that would potentially have made chess VAT-exempt
  • Take away the already small grant awarded to the ECF
  • Consistently reject the notion of chess being a sport
Against this background, the relevant politicians were never going to be prepared to make an exception for Shreyas on the grounds that he is a "national asset", because sadly chess appears to be held in such low-regard by UK governments in the first place.
Last edited by Alex Holowczak on Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:40 pm

"I always feel it's a shade unfair to criticise something I never, or hardly ever, read."

Oh I see - that's entirely reasonable!

J T Melsom
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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by J T Melsom » Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:06 am

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:54 pm
I too see JT's point but the logical extension of his argument seems to be that, if this country happened to have a Nobel Prize-winning scientist who earned only (say) £75,000 a year, then he or she would also be at risk of deportation notwithstanding the clear loss to the country. That's a perfectly tenable viewpoint although most people would probably disagree, particularly if his or her work was in a field where lives were at risk. Otherwise, it's simply a question of where one draws the line - who is worthy of being an exception and who, unfortunately, isn't.
Not a logical extension at all. The earnings test is not the only one because value can be measured in many ways. Having a prodigious chess player in the family just doesn't in my view mean that you should stay. There are other reasons based on human decency perhaps, but going back to my point abput the right sort of immigrant, would the ECF or members of the board be remotely bothered if it a non chess player faced with deportation? The chess ability is an excuse and thats why i can't support it. And in case anybody is thinking the worse I have helped two juniors from Asian backgrounds into the junior squad, so I'm not being prejudiced in these views.

Ian Thompson
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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by Ian Thompson » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:26 am

J T Melsom wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:06 am
There are other reasons based on human decency perhaps
Not in this case though. His father has chosen to work in this country for a total of 6 years, knowing he'd likely have to leave at the end of it with a 9 years old child. If that is disruptive to Shreyas' life, it's due to choices his father made.

Nick Burrows
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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by Nick Burrows » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:52 am

Why can there not be flexibility within the system? The argument has revolved around stopping uncontrolled immigration. Even Ukip's stance is to invite immigrants with skills that we are lacking. Shreyas has shown an exceptional talent, with the potential to make a significant cultural impact for the good of everyone who lives here.

Richard Bates
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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by Richard Bates » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:04 am

J T Melsom wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:06 am
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:54 pm
I too see JT's point but the logical extension of his argument seems to be that, if this country happened to have a Nobel Prize-winning scientist who earned only (say) £75,000 a year, then he or she would also be at risk of deportation notwithstanding the clear loss to the country. That's a perfectly tenable viewpoint although most people would probably disagree, particularly if his or her work was in a field where lives were at risk. Otherwise, it's simply a question of where one draws the line - who is worthy of being an exception and who, unfortunately, isn't.
Not a logical extension at all. The earnings test is not the only one because value can be measured in many ways. Having a prodigious chess player in the family just doesn't in my view mean that you should stay. There are other reasons based on human decency perhaps, but going back to my point abput the right sort of immigrant, would the ECF or members of the board be remotely bothered if it a non chess player faced with deportation? The chess ability is an excuse and thats why i can't support it.
I'm not really sure what this has to do with the question of whether the ECF should make representations on Shreyas' behalf. The ECF is not a campaigner on immigration law, nor is it the one making the decision. Perhaps the argument is a misrepresentation of what input the ECF can usefully add to the process. If the ECF is in a position of arguing that the Home Office should make exceptions for this 'special case' then i doubt it would have much impact whatsoever, if the Home Office has no inclination to make exceptions for special cases in general. On the other hand if the Home Office/Home Secretary is open to making such exceptions on a case by case basis then the ECF can offer a lot to help in providing specialist input to validate the potential arising Shreyas' talent. And such as case would obviously need to be made because i can imagine that his age would work against him to a great extent as everything is based on largely subjective potential rather than concrete achievement (and i'm not denying he has had some achievement). It is obvious that the Home Office couldn't accept every case based on the claims of a parent's assertions as to the sporting talents of their children without any serious external validation of that. The case (if the possibility of making a case exists) would clearly be a lot easier to make if he were a 15 year old Grandmaster than a 9 year old talent. But i don't see why the ECF shouldn't assist in attempting to make that case.

Whether the father has made bad decisions in hindsight, or whether he is wrong to seek the making of an exception would could put unreasonable pressure on Shreyas in future (one can reasonably strongly argue against potentially linking a 9 year olds future prospects/life specifically on whether he can demonstrate rapid fulfilment of a talent in a minority sport with uncertain future career value) is a completely different debate. Depends on whether an exception once made was to permanently change his residency status, i suppose.
Last edited by Richard Bates on Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

Matt Bridgeman
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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:08 am

I found the news very surprising. It's going to be a great loss to English chess if he has to leave later this year. I'd seriously consider going to Australia. Economically it's booming, and Shreyas could along with Anton Smirnov - 16 and rated 2549 - aim to spearhead the new wave of Aussie chess players. They are quite tough on immigration too, but not quite as intractable as the UK it would seen. After 4 years on a visa in Australia you can easily become an Australian citizen. I know as I did it in 2015.

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