Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

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Roger Lancaster
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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:45 am

J T Melsom wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:06 am
Not a logical extension at all. The earnings test is not the only one because value can be measured in many ways. Having a prodigious chess player in the family just doesn't in my view mean that you should stay. There are other reasons based on human decency perhaps, but going back to my point abput the right sort of immigrant, would the ECF or members of the board be remotely bothered if it a non chess player faced with deportation? The chess ability is an excuse and thats why i can't support it. And in case anybody is thinking the worse I have helped two juniors from Asian backgrounds into the junior squad, so I'm not being prejudiced in these views.
I'm not a lawyer, far less an immigration lawyer, and I can't believe anyone wants a long discussion on immigration law, but consider this. The family is at risk of being deported to India because, presumably, they are Indian citizens. If, during the period of residence in the UK, Shreyas had had a sibling who was a British citizen (which, for obvious reasons, I assume is not the case) then the immigration situation would have been quite different. One cannot deport a British citizen (and, if one tried, the destination country would have every right to refuse entry) and human rights issues militate against splitting families so the family would, in my clear view, then be allowed to stay. So much for the question of whether someone contributes intrinsic value or not, or who is "the right sort of immigrant", because these considerations are trumped by a new birth.


Eleven years ago, then home secretary John Reid asserted that the immigration directorate was "not fit for purpose" and that's probably still the case. Recent media reports of abusive husbands being given status in the UK suggest that things are seriously going wrong there and, frankly, it should be a case for concern when unqualified and violent individuals are being ushered into the country when useful and law-abiding individuals such as the Royals are being shown the door. So sorry, JT, while I respect your right to differ, I can't agree with you.

J T Melsom
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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by J T Melsom » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:17 am

Roger

I wasn't expecting unanimity and I was intending to stop posting. . I think my point was really quite simple - namely that I find it hard to conceive of an immigration system where exceptional chess talent should be seen as a priority reason to remain simply because there seem to be so many more deserving reasons to remain, some of which may apply in this specific case. And nor do I necessarily see such recognition as desirable other than within a way more liberal regime where it would probably be largely irrelevant anyway. Yes as you point out there are errors of judgement made routinely by the Home Office, but I've focussed on the principle of whether 'chess ability should be a factor and not other stuff. Just because bad people are allowed to stay doesn't mean that we should go easy on the case of good people.

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:58 am

JT - While I may disagree with you, I think you have stated your case with admirable clarity and, if I may say so, courtesy.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by Michael Farthing » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:22 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:45 am


If, during the period of residence in the UK, Shreyas had had a sibling who was a British citizen (which, for obvious reasons, I assume is not the case) then the immigration situation would have been quite different. One cannot deport a British citizen (and, if one tried, the destination country would have every right to refuse entry) and human rights issues militate against splitting families so the family would, in my clear view, then be allowed to stay. So much for the question of whether someone contributes intrinsic value or not, or who is "the right sort of immigrant", because these considerations are trumped by a new birth.
Actually, t'ain't the case as I have recently discovered. Birth in the UK to non citizens does not automatically confer citizenship. It might give sympathetic treatment on application for citizenship at aged 18. My wife is involved in a very similar situation with a Pakistani family facing deportation in the same way as the Royals. Their youngest was born here.

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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:38 pm

Michael Farthing wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:22 pm
Actually, t'ain't the case as I have recently discovered. Birth in the UK to non citizens does not automatically confer citizenship. It might give sympathetic treatment on application for citizenship at aged 18. My wife is involved in a very similar situation with a Pakistani family facing deportation in the same way as the Royals. Their youngest was born here.
Agreed, Michael, which is why I included the "who was a British citizen" caveat. (Safest route for this, naturally, is for one parent to be British).

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:30 am

Worth quoting from the chess24.com report, on the 5.5/9 achieved by Sheyras Royal in the Major Open, which includes a tweet from John Saunders, the letter jointly signed by two MPs and a tweet from John Cleese:

https://chess24.com/en/read/news/mickey ... ampionship
What was remarkable, though, was that he posted that performance given the pressure he was under. The youngster may have been the most recognisable figure to have played in the 2018 British Championship, after he found himself at the centre of a political storm. [...] He was born in India and moved to England with his family at the age of 3, but now faces the prospect of returning to India since his father’s 5-year work visa is about to expire. Two members of the British Parliament, Rachel Reeves and Matthew Pennycook, have supported the family’s request that they and their talented son be allowed to remain. The MPs highlight the curious rule that if the father was earning £120,000 a year he would be able to extend his stay. [...] As with any topic even vaguely related to Brexit, though, it’s advisable not to read the comments, which largely consist of people demanding to know why any exceptions should be made to immigration policy, especially because of a game like chess. Let’s hope the World Championship match in London later this year goes some way towards changing hearts and minds!
The bit about comments seems to refer to the Twitter comments, mainly on the John Cleese tweet (as expected, John Cleese has more followers than Rachel Reeve, MP who has more than John Saunders... :D ).

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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:20 pm

"They are quite tough on immigration too, but not quite as intractable as the UK it would seen."

No necessarily, I think Australia has different criteria regarding suitability.

I agree with Richard, ECF should ask for the family to stay. If they don't, it rather undermines what the 2 MPs are saying. Redhill had a useful player form India a couple of years ago and he got booted out at the end of his visa, but he has managed to get back under a new one, and I think he worked in IT too.

But, India has had a world champion, so their system must be pretty good.

Matt Bridgeman
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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:08 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:20 pm
"They are quite tough on immigration too, but not quite as intractable as the UK it would seen."

No necessarily, I think Australia has different criteria regarding suitability.
I'm pretty sure the father would find IT related skills and professions featuring quite prominently on the Australian visa skills list. Basically after 4 years in the country on whatever work visa it may be you can apply for citizenship. It used to be 2 years, but it changed a few years ago. The only downside would be it may take 6 months to process the initial visa, and it sounds like he's run out of time. It's an idea!

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by Roger Lancaster » Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:55 am

I've stressed before that I'm not a lawyer but I now wonder whether I'm blind through missing an elephant in the room. Granted, Shreyas's father may find it impossible to renew his visa due to the income shortfall but - if the family have 5 years unbroken residence in the UK - has an ILR (indefinite leave to remain) application, where the relevant income threshold is much lower, been considered instead?

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Michael Farthing
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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by Michael Farthing » Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:07 am

I'm advised that they have probably not been here long enough to make that application but that in any case it would probably still require exceptional circumstances.

NickFaulks
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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:15 am

As usual, the full facts of the case are not known, particularly by those making the most strident claims. I think it is entirely proper for the ECF simply to confirm the fact that Shreyas is the best prospect British chess has seen in decades and that it would be a great disappointment to lose him. Phil Ehr's ECF would have prefaced this with swingeing criticism of the UK Government's policies on immigration, and probably other things too, but that would not be helpful.

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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by Roger Lancaster » Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:48 am

Michael Farthing wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:07 am
I'm advised that they have probably not been here long enough to make that application but that in any case it would probably still require exceptional circumstances.
As far as I'm aware, ILR criteria are -

To qualify for Indefinite Leave to Remain you must satisfy the following criteria:
You must complete 5 years of continuous residence in the UK and adhere to certain income requirements
Keep a detailed record of any absences from the UK over the last 5 years, as any lengthy absences may impact upon your application
You must demonstrate a good knowledge of language and life in the UK, by way of the Life in the UK' test - a compulsory 45 minute test devised for foreign nationals seeking indefinite leave to remain in the UK or naturalisation as a British citizen



As Nick rightly observes, it's impossible to be sure about anything without knowing the fuller circumstances of the case. I merely wished to indicate that, if the family arrived in 2012, 5 years' continuous residence was a possibility. Of course, an ILR application may already have been explored and eliminated - impossible to tell from the various reports.

Matt Bridgeman
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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:57 am

The other interesting question to me is whether the potential will be realised. I've seen quite a few prospects reaching the age of 12 having been on the regime of 200+ rated games a year and 15 hours+ training a week for years, and they've clearly had enough of the whole business, even if they are still being taken to a lot of competitions by their parents. Shreyas is only 9 I think, and has a long road ahead of him.

Tim Harding
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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by Tim Harding » Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:46 pm

Any chance his father can get a job in Ireland, as I am sure the ICU would be happy to have Shreyas's registration transferred to Ireland?

With the added benefit that eventually the family could qualify as EU citizens.
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Leonard Barden
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Re: Shreyas Royal breaks U10 record, poses ECF a question

Post by Leonard Barden » Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:17 pm

Tim Harding wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:46 pm
Any chance his father can get a job in Ireland, as I am sure the ICU would be happy to have Shreyas's registration transferred to Ireland?

With the added benefit that eventually the family could qualify as EU citizens.
Jitendra Singh has already stated that Tata Steel is willing to transfer him to another European country, which probably means the Netherlands where TS has one of its two steelworks in Europe at Ijmuiden, the other being at Port Talbot.

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