First 4NCL

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
Nick Thomas
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Re: First 4NCL

Post by Nick Thomas » Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:53 am

Alan Burke wrote:Thank you Andrew for confirming my original view (or lack of it) of the results and proving that I did not need to refresh my browser - I had actually already done that before posting on here.

Actually, the Division 3 individual scores can now be seen on the website but still no such luck with Sunday's matches in Pool B of Division 2
As previously said the problem may be with your browser. I've had trouble in the past using Firefox to get 4NCL results. Try IE and all should be well.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: First 4NCL

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:06 am

One of the things I did notice was that if you go to:

http://www.4ncl.co.uk/resdiv3s.htm

And click on the rounds results, you get a pop-up window with the URL:

http://www.4ncl.livechess.co.uk/div3_20 ... 3s-rd1.htm

That URL doesn't look like it will be stable. Technically, the live chess domain name should be used only for, well, live chess. Otherwise there is just potential for confusion and links breaking in the future if the site's URL architecture is changed. This is the moment where I moan again about how the changes in the ECF website broke hundreds of old links... (yeah, I know, different topic, but it is still intensely annoying when that happens anywhere).

Neil Graham
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Re: First 4NCL

Post by Neil Graham » Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:45 am

Joey Stewart wrote:The most bizarre thing I noticed was the division 3 tables - brown jack won both games 6-0 (a very rare achievement in its own right) but are not top of the table? ?
Is it just that the table needs a little sorting and will be fixed soon?
They actually won one of the games 6 to -0.5 as there was a default board.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: First 4NCL

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:55 am

Joey Stewart wrote:The most bizarre thing I noticed was the division 3 tables - brown jack won both games 6-0 (a very rare achievement in its own right) but are not top of the table? ?
Tie Break is by sum of opponents score before match points. This is logical in the context of a Swiss, since a team leading for most of the event is likely to have met stronger opposition and scored more narrow victories, than one which lost an early match and caught up by dispatching weaker teams.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: First 4NCL

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:49 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Joey Stewart wrote:The most bizarre thing I noticed was the division 3 tables - brown jack won both games 6-0 (a very rare achievement in its own right) but are not top of the table? ?
Tie Break is by sum of opponents score before match points. This is logical in the context of a Swiss, since a team leading for most of the event is likely to have met stronger opposition and scored more narrow victories, than one which lost an early match and caught up by dispatching weaker teams.
Presumably that doesn't include points deducted for defaults? e.g. Brown Jack's sum of opponents scores is zero, rather than -0.5? Looking here, the SOS for Brown Jack is zero, so points deducted for defaults are indeed not included:

http://www.4ncl.co.uk/tables_1213/tab-div3s.htm

Sean Hewitt
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Re: First 4NCL

Post by Sean Hewitt » Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:53 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Presumably that doesn't include points deducted for defaults? e.g. Brown Jack's sum of opponents scores is zero, rather than -0.5? Looking here, the SOS for Brown Jack is zero, so points deducted for defaults are indeed not included:

http://www.4ncl.co.uk/tables_1213/tab-div3s.htm
It's sum of opponent's match points, not game points. Both of Brown Jack's opponents lost both of their matches so their tie break score is 0+0=0.

Mick Norris
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Re: First 4NCL

Post by Mick Norris » Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:09 pm

Bob Clark wrote:Less than three weeks till the start of the Northern League.
Hopefully the pairings will be available very shortly.
http://www.4ncl.co.uk/1213_fixdiv3n.htm
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Andrew Bak
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Re: First 4NCL

Post by Andrew Bak » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:36 am

Yorkshire Chess has published a report on the first weekend's play at the 4NCL:

4NCL 2012/13 – Rounds 1&2

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Joey Stewart
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Re: First 4NCL

Post by Joey Stewart » Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:26 pm

That is the only thing I find slightly unusual about the 4ncl - the 'lottery' type deciding factors in the divisions (one and two have the removal of scored gained and div 3 has this sum of opponents scores) which cannot be influenced by anything other then chance. It is such a good league in every other way but I am still mystified as to why these systems are used instead of just adding up all the match/game points and deciding the winner thusly.

On another positive note, however, the games viewers were activated today so those of us without databases can now have a nice browse through all the games played.
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: First 4NCL

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:18 pm

Joey Stewart wrote:That is the only thing I find slightly unusual about the 4ncl - the 'lottery' type deciding factors in the divisions (one and two have the removal of scored gained and div 3 has this sum of opponents scores) which cannot be influenced by anything other then chance. It is such a good league in every other way but I am still mystified as to why these systems are used instead of just adding up all the match/game points and deciding the winner thusly.
The reason for the way Divisions 1 and 2 work is that if, for whatever reason, one half of the division proves to be much stronger than the other (for example, by teams suddenly gaining or losing sponsorship in the off-season), the teams in the stronger half aren't unduly penalized for having had to face a stronger field overall.

A similar thing applies in Division 3: because it's a Swiss and not an all-play-all, teams can face fields of wildly differing strengths, and assuming your tie-break is meant to reward performing well, sum of opponents' scores does this better than game points - you're rewarding teams who can win matches against strong teams in preference to teams who can beat up on rabbits.

Adam Ashton
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Re: First 4NCL

Post by Adam Ashton » Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:22 pm

Joey Stewart wrote:That is the only thing I find slightly unusual about the 4ncl - the 'lottery' type deciding factors in the divisions (one and two have the removal of scored gained and div 3 has this sum of opponents scores) which cannot be influenced by anything other then chance. It is such a good league in every other way but I am still mystified as to why these systems are used instead of just adding up all the match/game points and deciding the winner thusly.

On another positive note, however, the games viewers were activated today so those of us without databases can now have a nice browse through all the games played.
I think we've been here before. The fact that usually weaker teams have their best performance(s) of the season count for nothing to my mind makes the pool system fundamentally flawed.

However there is no perfect system for 16 teams and last time around no one seemed in favour of a season with mass relegation. So it's probably as good as anything.

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