Chess row in Cork

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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu May 23, 2013 12:03 am

Andrew Zigmond wrote: Ivanov was the apparent victim of the cheating,
Just to clarify, we've jumped from one story to another. Borislav Ivanov is a Bulgarian player who came to prominence with a series of exceptional performances recently. The problem is that his games show a remarkably high correlation with the top chess engines, but there aren't any visible signs of possible cheating such as rushing off to the rest room every five minutes.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Thu May 23, 2013 12:24 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Andrew Zigmond wrote: Ivanov was the apparent victim of the cheating,
Just to clarify, we've jumped from one story to another. Borislav Ivanov is a Bulgarian player who came to prominence with a series of exceptional performances recently. The problem is that his games show a remarkably high correlation with the top chess engines, but there aren't any visible signs of possible cheating such as rushing off to the rest room every five minutes.
My mistake - sorry.
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Stewart Reuben
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Stewart Reuben » Thu May 23, 2013 12:29 am

E Michael. Now I know why I was asked to further define what was meant by the 'playing area'.
I was minded to define it as 'the area where the chess is played'. Still if the stating 'The playing area is defined as the place where the games of an event are played' helps diminish confusion, that is good.

And I still haven't managed to get a definition of 'normal means' in to the Laws. Perhaps I'll try again in October since the Laws have been delayed a year.
.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Geoff Chandler » Thu May 23, 2013 1:56 am

Hi Clive,

" Engines like Houdini "think" the way that they do because they can examine something
like 10 million positions per second, "

Never underestimate the human brain.

Look at how many ingenuis ways we have invented for killing each other.
(most likely man's first invention was a club to kill things.)

Shakuntala Devi who passed away recently could out perform computers in mathematical calcualtions.

from wiki.
"In 1977 in USA she competed with a computer to see who gives the cube root of 188138517 faster, she won."

OK a 1977 computer cannot be compared to a 2013 computer but even so that is an amazing feat.
She was unique. Gifted.

Who is to say that this lad cannot see what a computer will play in a given position.

White to play and mate.



That took you all of 5 milliseconds. You recognised the pattern.

This lad, the Bulgarian chess player, can see what a box will play without calculation.
(just as you never calculated the above position.)

Who is to say he cannot?
We have had prodigies in Music, Maths and Chess before. They do happen.

We all think and imagine differently.

Think of two dice showing the number 7. What do you see?

4+3
5+2
6+1

What colour are your dice? Are they both the same colour?

A simple test like that and we are getting all kinds of different answers.
Today I see 5+2 on red dice...tomorrow it may be 3+4 on white dice.

Perhaps a part of his brain can tune into what a computer would play?
Sometimes it does not work (we have all had those days and tournaments.)

Like all gifted people he cannot explain it, it just happens.

Likely?

You cannot say no. Never under estimate what the human brain can do.

And if we knew for sure that what Houdini plays is 100% correct and
can never be improved upon Chess then yes very possible.

However if it has not (yet) reached that level of absolute perfection.
And the moves of Houdini can be improved upon....
....why is the prodigy playing bum notes?

Some maps have deliberate mistakes in them so if anyone reprints them
without permission then they reprint the mistake.

http://www.ianbyrne.free-online.co.uk/s ... errors.htm

So instead of looking at match up's.
Look for the moves that Houdini likes (and we can prove are not the best)
then look for the same moves appearing in Boris's games.

If instead Boris plays the improvement......?

Clive Blackburn

Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Clive Blackburn » Thu May 23, 2013 6:41 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:Hi Clive,

" Engines like Houdini "think" the way that they do because they can examine something
like 10 million positions per second, "

Never underestimate the human brain.
Geoff I agree with all that you said above, I am constantly amazed at the power of the human brain!

But as you say:-
Geoff Chandler wrote:
This lad, the Bulgarian chess player, can see what a box will play without calculation.
(just as you never calculated the above position.)
That is what I mean by not "Thinking like a Computer". Computers do not play perfect chess, they sometimes lose to other computers, they might even lose to a human occasionally. All I am saying is that when they evaluate positions, chess engines use a totally different approach from that of a human player.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Geoff Chandler » Fri May 24, 2013 1:51 am

Hi Clive.

I agree with you.
I'm coming from the angle that perhaps this lad can see or feel
what a computer will play in a certain position.
A gift. (I've used thinking as a joke for the book title but off
the top of my head I cannot think of a better term.)

It's unlikely but not impossible.
At the moment all we know (or think we know) is that he's cheating but we don't know how?
Explore all angles.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri May 24, 2013 2:01 am

If he could think like a computer, I doubt he would be wasting his time on chess.

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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Geoff Chandler » Fri May 24, 2013 2:20 am

Hi Chris

If he can only 'think' like a chess computer...what else is he going to do?

(And nobody wastes their time on Chess...what else is there to do?) :wink:

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JustinHorton
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by JustinHorton » Sat May 25, 2013 9:57 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:From http://www.chessbase.com/Home/TabId/211 ... 10513.aspx

Malcolm Pein wrote:Thanks to Professor Ken Regan and others, we can tell when a computer has been used or appears to have been used. This, combined with the rating of the player, enables an arbiter to judge with near certainty if there has been cheating. So I would like to propose the ECF Directors come up with some enforceable sanctions that can be implemented in these cases.
Personally I think this is nonsense. You may be able to demonstrate that it's possible a computer has been used, but in over the board chess, that is not evidence of cheating. Unless you can demonstrate a method of cheating such as leaving the board to consult a phone whilst on the move, it is absolutely wrong to accuse of player of cheating just because their pre-game preparation is exceptional or they have a similar judgement to the chess engine of your choice.
Another point might be - you may be able to tell when a computer has been used to the satisfaction of experienced chess players, but can you tell to the satisfaction of a court?
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:48 pm

An update on this incident at this blog post here (by Colm Dal):

http://www.irishchesscogitations.com/bl ... d-opinion/

Are there any links to official statements from the ICU?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:33 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote: Are there any links to official statements from the ICU?
I don't think there have been any. That was in part the point of the blog post. There have been at least a couple of similar cases in England. It's believed that in both cases the parents showed contrition rather than hiring a defence lawyer. But then the ECF didn't set up commissions of enquiry either.

Martin Crichton
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Martin Crichton » Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:00 am

IanDavis wrote:It will be interesting to see what the sentences are.
The chairperson, it seems, is not overly fond of Gabriel Mirza. One could speculate why - belonging to the wrong club, perhaps in more than 1 sense. :)
The cheater is a junior, and a member of Gonzaga College, two factors that may shield him well one might say?
Personally, I expect it all to be swept under the carpet, because that's how these things go.
posted on the 24th April.

Uncanny prediction.
Member of "the strongest amateur chess club in London" (Cavendish)

my views are not representative of any clubs or organisations.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:13 am

Martin Crichton wrote: Uncanny prediction.
The lad's defence, or perhaps that of his lawyer was that there had been aggro when he previously played Mizra and this was the first time he had resorted to the use of an Android tablet. That's where you need evidence from his previous opponents in the tournament as to his behaviour and the opinions of the witch finders on previous games using engine matching. It's still cheating to disappear to consult the tablet, regardless of how annoying you find the opponent.

NickFaulks
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:37 pm

I knew nothing about this case until I stumbled upon it here. I hope it will be reported to FIDE.

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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:46 pm

NickFaulks wrote:I knew nothing about this case until I stumbled upon it here. I hope it will be reported to FIDE.
The event wasn't FIDE rated, so I'm guessing it won't be reported to them. I've personally caught two cheaters in FIDE rated events and reported both to FIDE.

I'm not aware of FIDE taking any action in either case.

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