Ladies v Women

[Paul McKeown]

Justin,

People are banging on about it, not from some perverse dinosaurist streak, but because of the utter pointlessness of it. The objection to the term "ladies" stems primarily from golf and tennis clubs, some of which, as is well known, rigidly enforced unfair rules restricting the rights of ladies to fully participate, competitively, administratively and socially. I suppose one should also mention posh gentlemen's clubs, working men's clubs and the like in this context too. In the United Kingdom, this no longer happens, it being both socially unacceptable and contrary to law.

The only chess club anywhere in the world that I am aware of that operated a policy of gender discrimination was Damegambiet, in Amsterdam, which originated in the 1970's sex wars, considered male chess players to be gender hegemonists and barred men from participating in any of its activities.

Personally, I think that issues of equality are far too important to allow such fluff to reduce them into absurdity. Equality in British society would be better served, for instance, by a properly funded and universal child care scheme. Is this going to happen? Not likely. Instead we have the the likes of the Eagle sisters demonstrating their feminist credentials by chasing inconsequential moondust.

Obviously chess in the United Kingdom has a rather limited female participation at all levels. I would be interested in hearing why it is unattractive to women and what might be done to make it more attractive.

I would be surprised to hear that the reasons for this limited participation is that of rampant male chauvinism. My impression is that chess is open and welcomes people of all sorts, whether from racial or religious minorities, irrespective of age, social class or walk of life, how they dress, what they eat, whether they are abled bodied or disabled, whatever gender or sexual orientation. I have never heard any of the various discriminating and pejorative epithets for racial minorities or particular sexual orientations, for instance, applied by one chess player to another, either in public or private. Sadly, I have heard such words used all to often in everyday life, outside of chess. Chess players are simply not interested in that stuff.

[JustinHorton]

Obviously chess in the United Kingdom has a rather limited female participation at all levels. I would be interested in hearing why it is unattractive to women and what might be done to make it more attractive.

Well, one answer would be that it's pretty unattractive if a minor but timely change in title brings forth a torrent of high-pitched and disproportionate resentment. (I mean, Paul, what made you think it's appropriate to respond to this change by invoking proposed changes to the rape laws? What were you thinking of?)

Chess players are simply not interested in that stuff.

I honestly think that's a bit naive. I agree that epithets are rare, but in public they're rare enough these days anyway. But I reaslly doubt that chessplayers form a particularly open-minded group as a whole (why would they?) and don't think chess is all that welcoming an environment for women and that, in fact, women who take part often become aware of a great deal of male resentment. It's not out-and-out prejudice, it's not as simple as that.

I think this thread is a good example of that. Something happens which doesn't even affect people, which hurts nobody - and Christ, people start screaming all over the shop. People say it's because it's a trivial thing but that won't wash. If it's trivial, you don't need to be so ludicrously upset by it, and you don't need to start shouting about Harriet Harman and the rape laws.

[Alex Holowczak]

Something happens which doesn't even affect people, which hurts nobody - and Christ, people start screaming all over the shop. People say it's because it's a trivial thing but that won't wash. If it's trivial, you don't need to be so ludicrously upset by it

This poem springs to mind.

[Paul McKeown]

The references to proposed rape laws followed Jonathan's mentioning actual changes to the murder laws. They both illustrate the same right on mindset that leads to thinking that changing the word "lady" to the word "woman" achieves anything useful. The changes to the murder laws and the ideas regarding rape seek to redress injustices that some women have to deal with; their proponents are blind to the fresh injustices that they will/would thereby cause. Any rational thought ought to make clear their absurdity. This change of wording is absurd also, although, happily, not dangerous. In any case, they all stem from the same, stereotypical, way of thinking about society.

I think the resentment, as Alex and Jonathan have both made clear, stems from the fact that Maria Eagle is not a chess player, but permits herself, nevertheless, to meddle in its affairs, presumably purporting to know what is good for it better than those actually involved in it.

I am utterly unaware of any male resentment to women playing chess, at least amongst chess players of my acquaintance in London. Perhaps Kasparov, but then he sneered at all other chess players. Perhaps Fischer, but he was mad. Perhaps you could give an example?

Actually, I think that you will find that the reason there are so few female chess players, is the same one that male chess players are also relatively rare amongst the general population. Simply that teenagers find it difficult to take part in a "Billy Nomates" activity that sets them apart. And that pressure affects female chess players earlier than male chess players and is perhaps felt more strongly. Adult women that play chess, are, I suspect, much more likely to be strong willed, open minded and less susceptible to such peer pressure, than in general. I think that probably applies to male chess players, too, and is also the reason that makes discriminatory attitudes amongst chess players less common than in the world outside chess.

And Justin, screaming? What screaming? No screaming here. Try turning down the volume?

[Ian Thompson]

If Jovanka Houska won the Ladies' title this year, and her name went on the trophy as Mrs. A. Hagesaether, and she complained about the name on the trophy and the title of "Ladies' Champion", I would be more inclined to listen.

I imagine that the trophy is an old one that says "Ladies'" on it, not "Women's", and that's not going to change, whatever the event may now be called. If Jovanka Houska wins it this year then the winner ought to be recorded as "Mrs. J. Hagesaether", assuming that the list of winners in the ECF yearbook corresponds to what's already on the trophy.

(Incidently, the Yearbook records some changes of winners' names, but not all, e.g. Miss Dew is stated to be Mrs. Bruce, Miss Saunders is stated to be Mrs. Pritchard, but there is no comment on Mrs. J. Hartston, Dr. J. Hartston and Dr. J. Miles, nor on Mrs. S. K. Arkell and Mrs. S. Lalic.)

Ian Thompson

[JustinHorton]

Something happens which doesn't even affect people, which hurts nobody - and Christ, people start screaming all over the shop. People say it's because it's a trivial thing but that won't wash. If it's trivial, you don't need to be so ludicrously upset by it

This poem springs to mind.

Don't be stupid Alex.

Really.

Don't be stupid.

[JustinHorton]

They both illustrate the same right on mindset that leads to thinking that changing the word "lady" to the word "woman" achieves anything useful.

They're actually completely different things, Paul. The inablity to distinguish things that are big and important from things that are not is a characteristic of this discussion.

I think the resentment, as Alex and Jonathan have both made clear, stems from the fact that Maria Eagle is not a chess player, but permits herself, nevertheless, to meddle in its affairs, presumably purporting to know what is good for it better than those actually involved in it.

As far as I am aware she has been involved in chess affairs for a number of years, an involvement that has not been previously resented.

[Rob Thompson]

I call Godwin's law on this discussion

[Paul McKeown]

It all stems from stereotypical thinking. One starts from a particular theory about how society is composed and operates and then one views everything from through the lens that this provides. In this case the mental straightjacket is one from a particular strand of Labourism. It doesn't matter, though, the same regimented thinking takes place on the political right as well as on the political left. Please permit the political sceptics to question the efficacy of the social quacksilvery brewed up to the recipe mandated.

[JustinHorton]

I'm not sure I can decode that.

[Paul McKeown]

I think the meaning is clear to those open to it.

[Paul McKeown]

I think the resentment, as Alex and Jonathan have both made clear, stems from the fact that Maria Eagle is not a chess player, but permits herself, nevertheless, to meddle in its affairs, presumably purporting to know what is good for it better than those actually involved in it.

As far as I am aware she has been involved in chess affairs for a number of years, an involvement that has not been previously resented.

Consulting the grading list, the last mention I can find of an "ME Eagle" is 1994. I assume that is the lady in question, there are no other plausible candidates.

So, not a chess player, then.

[Alex Holowczak]

If Jovanka Houska won the Ladies' title this year, and her name went on the trophy as Mrs. A. Hagesaether, and she complained about the name on the trophy and the title of "Ladies' Champion", I would be more inclined to listen.

I imagine that the trophy is an old one that says "Ladies'" on it, not "Women's", and that's not going to change, whatever the event may now be called. If Jovanka Houska wins it this year then the winner ought to be recorded as "Mrs. J. Hagesaether", assuming that the list of winners in the ECF yearbook corresponds to what's already on the trophy.

(Incidently, the Yearbook records some changes of winners' names, but not all, e.g. Miss Dew is stated to be Mrs. Bruce, Miss Saunders is stated to be Mrs. Pritchard, but there is no comment on Mrs. J. Hartston, Dr. J. Hartston and Dr. J. Miles, nor on Mrs. S. K. Arkell and Mrs. S. Lalic.)

Ian Thompson

I see. I was drawing a parallel to Wimbledon, where Chris Evert would have been called "Mrs. J.M. Lloyd" on the scoreboard. Indeed, when Justine Henin was married a few years ago, she was known as "Mrs. P-Y Hardenne". I.e. they took their husband's first names aswell. That said, I have no idea what the naming conventions are in yearbooks or on the trophies. Whichever convention they use, they should probably have a universal one.

[Roger de Coverly]

I think the point about the Eagles is that they both competed in the (junior) British Championships during the 1970's. As they are MPs in the Liverpool area and last year's championship was in that city, I imagine someone involved with the organisation (the Prof maybe) thought it was a good idea publicity-wise to wheel them out for the Opening Ceremony.

I'm reminded of the famous Botvinnik letter to Stalin after 1936 Nottingham. It wasn't that B really thought that Stalin's leadership had helped him win the tournament against Capa and Alekhine etc. , but that someone in the USSR chess federation thought it politically necessary for a winning chess player to praise Stalin.

This year's programme doesn't mention any celebrities at the "Official Opening Ceremony". On past experience of Torquay, they can usually field the Mayor. Whether the ECF president will turn up for his organisation's flagship event remains to be seen.

[Paul McKeown]

Whichever convention they use, they should probably have a universal one.

I think it's simpler than that - Jovanka should be called by whatever name she chooses for herself.