Ladies v Women

[Alex Holowczak]

Whichever convention they use, they should probably have a universal one.

I think it's simpler than that - Jovanka should be called by whatever name she chooses for herself.

Yes, agreed.

[Paul McKeown]

I'm reminded of the famous Botvinnik letter to Stalin after 1936 Nottingham. It wasn't that B really thought that Stalin's leadership had helped him win the tournament against Capa and Alekhine etc. , but that someone in the USSR chess federation thought it politically necessary for a winning chess player to praise Stalin.

On the theme of pejorative epithets, Stalin is notoriously said to have referred to Botvinnik as "Чуконетс", Botvinnik having been born in what was part of Finland until taken by the Soviets.

[JustinHorton]

Maria Eagle, the interfering politician:

I wish to refer to something that many may not consider to be a sport, but which I wish to argue is. It is a game played by old and young, and boys and girls. It is open to those who are able-bodied and those with disabilities, and allows them to compete equally against each other. We recently realised that it can be played by machines against humans with some success. It can even be played as an individual sport or as a team game; in a friendly way or in deadly serious competition. At its best, it promotes concentration, self-esteem and self-confidence among those who play it. It is played by 4 million people in this country, 15,000 of whom play competitively. It is the sport of chess.

I have played chess from the age of eight, but I now play in a rather more laid-back way than I used to. I no longer compete, but I spent 10 to 12 years of my youth competing seriously. Britain does not list chess as a sport, although 26 European nations do. The result is that there is very little access to funding for chess. Last year, the amount of state support for chess and chess development was only £49,000. That is despite the fact that Britain is recognised as the best chess-playing nation in the world outside the nations of the former Soviet Union. We have a proud record as a chess-playing nation.

I ask the Minister to consider seriously taking up the work begun by Mr. Sproat, and promoted by my hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey (Angela Eagle), on chess being re-categorised as a sport. In many European countries that are not as succesful as Britain, much more state support is provided. Greece, for example, spends £337,000 a year, as opposed to our £49,000. It is a game that allows those with disabilities, the old and young, the fit and unfit to compete against each other equally. If that is not a definition of sport for all, I do not know what is, and I should like the Minister to consider re-categorising chess as a sport in this country.

Evil, sinister woman.

[Paul McKeown]

Yes, Justin, an intervention, which if successful, would have been greatly beneficial to chess in the United Kingdom. But I notice that you are quoting Hansard from 1997.

[JustinHorton]

That's when the debate was, Paul. (There was also one in 1999.)

The point is that nobody was complaing about her not being a chessplayer then - lastest grade in 1984 or no. Nobody was resenting her involvement then. But now - a tiny whiff of feminism and she's not a chessplayes, she's part of "Mad Hatter Harman's" Monstrous Regiment of Women.

[Paul McKeown]

she's part of "Mad Hatter Harman's" Monstrous Regiment of Women.

Is she?

[JustinHorton]

she's part of "Mad Hatter Harman's" Monstrous Regiment of Women.

Is she?

Having read your remarkable posting in which you chose to invoke several leading female Government Ministers, I can only conclude that she is.

[Paul McKeown]

Is she?

Having read your remarkable posting in which you chose to invoke several leading female Government Ministers, I can only conclude that she is.

Hmmm, Maria Eagle is not a leading female Government Minister last time I looked. A junior bottle-washing type of Minister was what I thought her recent promotion made her.

[Simon Spivack]

Justin,

One can see that you are a trifle agitated because of the uncharacteristic for you spelling errors. May I suggest a period of calm reflection.

Your first post in this thread effectively called the highly respected Jonathan Rogers a child. Jonathan has been active as an organiser over a number of years, as well as being a FIDE master; furthermore, he is, in my view, an excellent poster. I don't know Alex Holowczak at all, but really, calling one of his posts, and, by extension, Alex himself, "stupid" doesn't help matters. What I don't want is for good contributors to be driven out. I may be alone in this, but, for instance, I regret that David Robertson no longer posts here.

You are perfectly entitled to your bizarre views of individuals such as Mrs Dromey and Mrs Hodge. I don't believe Mrs Hodge's behaviour as leader of Islington Council when it came to children's care homes is at all defensible, but you may beg to differ.

I should imagine that part of Jonathan Rogers's objection to government legislation is that much of it is driven by news manipulation. If this is so then I can only agree with him. Perfectly sensible laws have been replaced by internally inconsistent gibberish: something that even law books are now bringing up.

Trying to bring this thread to something closer to being on topic, I no longer feel comfortable when it comes to copyright law. The law used to be that if one acknowledged one's sources and quoted extracts of a text for the purposes of comment and review then one was in the clear. Lord knows what it is now. Does anyone? This would be particular useful for those writing in the history forum.

[Mike Gunn]

Surely the point must be that we want to encourage more females to play chess? Are we more likely to do this if we use the term "women" or the term "ladies"? A trawl around the internet shows an almost universal move towards the use of the term "women" when taking about females playing sports (e.g. the English Ladies Golf Association changed its name to the the English Women's Golf Association in 2007). I think the use if the term "Ladies' chess suggests a somewhat archaic, backward looking approach which would not be as attractive to prospective female players. Has anyone sought the views of females on this (current and pospective players)?

[Ian Kingston]

Trying to bring this thread to something closer to being on topic, I no longer feel comfortable when it comes to copyright law. The law used to be that if one acknowledged one's sources and quoted extracts of a text for the purposes of comment and review then one was in the clear. Lord knows what it is now. Does anyone? This would be particular useful for those writing in the history forum.

I'm not a lawyer (just an editor), but much of Chapter III of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (the most recent legislation) covers fair dealing. For example, Section 30 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/uk ... -pb2-l1g30) covers 'Criticism, review and news reporting' and it seems clear enough that there has been no change to the situation for over 20 years.

But I reiterate - I am most emphatically not a lawyer and will happily defer to anyone with specific expertise in copyright law.

[Paul McKeown]

Surely the point must be that we want to encourage more females to play chess? Are we more likely to do this if we use the term "women" or the term "ladies"? A trawl around the internet shows an almost universal move towards the use of the term "women" when taking about females playing sports (e.g. the English Ladies Golf Association changed its name to the the English Women's Golf Association in 2007). I think the use if the term "Ladies' chess suggests a somewhat archaic, backward looking approach which would not be as attractive to prospective female players. Has anyone sought the views of females on this (current and pospective players)?

That's a remarkably sensible posting, Mike, for this thread It might well be that the English Women's Chess Association has been consulted. Which then raises the question why the ECF should see fit to announce it as an initiative of the Eagle sisters.

[Simon Spivack]

Trying to bring this thread to something closer to being on topic, I no longer feel comfortable when it comes to copyright law. The law used to be that if one acknowledged one's sources and quoted extracts of a text for the purposes of comment and review then one was in the clear. Lord knows what it is now. Does anyone? This would be particular useful for those writing in the history forum.

I'm not a lawyer (just an editor), but much of Chapter III of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (the most recent legislation) covers fair dealing. For example, Section 30 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/uk ... -pb2-l1g30) covers 'Criticism, review and news reporting' and it seems clear enough that there has been no change to the situation for over 20 years.

But I reiterate - I am most emphatically not a lawyer and will happily defer to anyone with specific expertise in copyright law.

Many thanks for this. I knew that there had been some discussion about extending the life of a copyright. I feared that this would lead to surreptitious changes elsewhere.

[Jonathan Rogers]

Gosh, this thread has exploded over the last day or so!

Basically, I agree with both of Mike and Paul in their recent posts. If most English chess playing women do prefer to be called to be women rather than ladies, and perhaps they do, then there is indeed every reason to change the label we give to the titles. No one of this forum would object; for some reason I think that Justin has misunderstood this.

But we don't know whether that is the case. As Paul says, the ECF speaks only of the wishes of the Eagle sisters. The suggestion is that the ECF should quite naturally jump at the opportunity to satisfy any request by anyone who has acquired the title of minister. But there is no suggestion at all that any extra funding will come our way on account of this, and it is clear that the ministers in question will not be in power this time next year and quite possibly never again at all.

So (I repeat) in the absence of any knowledge of the views of present day female chess players, my use of the word "kowtow" in describing the ECF's attitude seems quite appropriate, if a little strong. If it is wrong, it is because the ECF has not explained itself properly.

Personally, I would imagine that the English Women's Chess Association are mostly concerned with thinking of measures to encourage more females of all ages to play and enjoy the game. Various measures are possible, though doubtless many are difficult and expensive to implement. I would be surprised if any one has been saying "I've got it! Let's start by changing the title of British Ladies Champion ...". I cannot imagine that anyone with any genuine interest in chess has been put off the game by the label "Ladies" in the British Championship. Even the Eagle sisters themselves seem to have given up chess because of the pressures of political life rather than anything else.

[Alex Holowczak]

I would be surprised if any one has been saying "I've got it! Let's start by changing the title of British Ladies Champion ..."

That scenario had crossed my mind.