European Championship - Team ENGLAND

[JustinHadi]

I note nobody has commented on the ECF decision not to provide a coach for the women's team so on that note...

[Jonathan Rogers]

Just to add (before anyone else does) that since someone would have to switch federation and maybe pay a transfer fee, there is not actually much prospect of a foreigner just coming here and playing for England for a few years and then going home again - certainly not if we wanted him or her to be a naturalised citizen too.

[Jonathan Rogers]

I note nobody has commented on the ECF decision not to provide a coach for the women's team so on that note...

Let's wait to see whether ECF has to admit that things have been messed up to such an extent that we won't be sending a women's team at all (which is where we seem to be heading now that another of our top players has pulled out over the lack of a coach)

[JustinHadi]

Messed up or saved money. This is the debate.

[Jonathan Rogers]

Messed up or saved money. This is the debate.

This is the debate? I hope not. This reminds me of those Americans who want creationism to be taught in science classes. "We can't, there's no scientific basis to your beliefs!" they are told. "Well, at least teach the debate!" they cry back.

[JustinHadi]

Perhaps. But market forces would prefer to see the better players IMHO.

[JustinHadi]

You also seem to be arguing from a perspective of equality where rating parity is not there.

[PeterFarr]

We have an open team and we have a women's team and they should both get the same opportunity / support. It's nothing to do with market forces or rating parity.

[JustinHadi]

In general I disagree. For example UK athletics took away lottery funding from athletes who didn't meet targets partially as a motivator to get them to improve. The same could easily be applied to chess. Targets have been set for number of players above 2600, the same could be applied to individual players/teams. I don't pretend it's popular, but this approach has been shown to work in other sports.

[PeterFarr]

And UK athletics has different standards for men and women. So that doesn't support your argument.

[JustinHadi]

As mentioned earlier funding should go to the team with the highest likelihood of success.

[Mark Howitt]

Yeah one or two people here might... because I was part of the Yorkshire chess scene for 12 years. And being a worldwide selling 'chess author'. My views are similar to a lot of people in Yorkshire anyway. We do things our own way more than most counties.

[Mark Howitt]

Mark's contribution above seems to be that people should only play for England if they are really English, if they grew up here, etc. I won't bother responding to that. Some one else can contribute, for a change. Come on, sensible people, say something, unless you want people to think that Justin and Mark represent the mainstream views in English chess ...

Fair point Jonathan, but where to start?

The nature of English society in the 21st century is such that we are very open; a lot of people from overseas come here to live, and a lot of English people go to live abroad. People don't always know in advance for how long they will live in a country. In my view it's common-sense to play people that qualify and want to play for England. If they come from overseas and later change their minds and go to live abroad again, well that's bad luck, but it's essentially the same for any other country too; you win some, you lose some. So get over it. And where do you draw the line - Murray Chandler? Bob Wade? I suppose New Zealand counts as English really does it?

I could say - I am unaware that anyone ever complained about Wade or Chandler playing for England, what with all their book writing, coaching and magazine editing that they did over here as well. When Murray won in less than two hours against the USSR in the crunch match in the Dubai Olympiad 1986, I don't think that even Mark would have wanted to send him home . Perhaps we draw the line at whether they will really contribute to the team, regardless of original nationality, which is why perhaps Bogdan never played for England.

But actually, I do agree that it's a sensitive issue, and if you know that a player will soon return to another country, then you may not want to upset your home players by excluding them if we are talking about small differences only. Resolving this can be left to the unenviable decision of the selectors. But I can easily say something as measured as that and still be some way from Mark's position as he has expressed it.

Thought a chess FM would know he played for England in 2003.

[Mark Howitt]

I think it's more important for the stronger team to get support. After all, players rated 2400 and below get very little if any support from the ECF.

[PeterFarr]

The open team has the same chance of medals as the women, i.e., zero. Be realistic.