Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

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NickFaulks
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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Post by NickFaulks » Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:36 pm

Can anyone lipread? Clearly Aronian did have a bit to say at the time and it would be interesting to know what. Perhaps "not with me you don't, young man"?
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Mike Truran
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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Post by Mike Truran » Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:42 pm

he 'probably did' touch the king
:lol: :lol: :lol:

NickFaulks
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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Post by NickFaulks » Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:59 pm

just for a second or two, no big deal
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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Post by Michael Mkpadi » Sat Mar 19, 2016 9:26 pm

Ray Sayers wrote:
Basically says it's not a big deal, he 'probably did' touch the king and blames Levon for making a big deal of it.
"...probably..." I'd change that to certainly Mr. Hikaru Nakamura. Video cameras don't lie
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Nick Burrows
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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Post by Nick Burrows » Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:07 pm

Paolo Casaschi wrote:
Nick Burrows wrote: I think you are reading a way too much into this episode. Nakamura apparently moved on from that episode faster than you.

In Italy there's a saying that some people see dishonesty and mischief everywhere only because they know those all too well.
I think you are defending your hero :wink:

If by "moving on" you mean "avoid discussing" then I agree with you.

My fat old momma used to say "It takes a cheat to know a cheat, but honest men can perceive them too"

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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:24 pm

A similar incident in an amateur event was discussed here a couple of years ago

http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php ... 30#p134670

Aronian, quite rightly, was not prepared to accept that a deliberate attempt to play a move could be j'adoubed out of existence. It's unlikely he was aware of a Blackpool precedent, but probably would have recalled the Zurab incident.

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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Post by James Byrne » Sun Mar 20, 2016 1:27 am

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NickFaulks
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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Mar 20, 2016 8:59 am

Yermo is always a very valuable source, the Taimanov anecdote is brilliant. Kochyev might have been overawed by his opponent, but he wasn't. That's why I was so impressed with Kosteniuk's reaction, she nailed it down straight away. Perhaps Aronian went out of his way to mock Naka's j'adoube shtick, but if so I don't blame him.
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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:46 am

What was he saying about Karpov? (Just before the Taimanov story. I can't quite catch it. About 1.06.35. Can't work out the name of the opponent.)
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:03 am

This is the Taimanov-Kochiev game referred to, it's quite a nice error:



Position before 28. Bd5

"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Clive Blackburn

Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Post by Clive Blackburn » Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:25 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:A similar incident in an amateur event was discussed here a couple of years ago

http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php ... 30#p134670

Aronian, quite rightly, was not prepared to accept that a deliberate attempt to play a move could be j'adoubed out of existence. It's unlikely he was aware of a Blackpool precedent, but probably would have recalled the Zurab incident.
If the Blackpool incident had been recorded on video and also observed by an arbiter then I am sure that a complaint would have been lodged! It was only the lack of independent witnesses that persuaded the wronged player to reluctantly accept the "adjusted" move.

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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:48 am

Clive Blackburn wrote: If the Blackpool incident had been recorded on video and also observed by an arbiter then I am sure that a complaint would have been lodged!
The sad thing for chess about the J’adoubeamura incident is not that it was recorded on video - broadcast live, for that matter - and still he tried to get away with it. It’s that he’ll be allowed to get away with the self-serving 'justification' in the interview that he gave two days after the incident.

A candidate for the world chess championship tried to cheat and then refused to accept responsibility for his behaviour. Indeed he actually blames his opponent.

No matter, he’ll be allowed to get away with it.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Mar 20, 2016 11:02 am

It would be good if somebody asked him why it was, given that according to him "in the moment I certainly didn't feel like it" (""it" being having touched the king) he was proposing "j'adoube" in the first place.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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James Byrne
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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Post by James Byrne » Sun Mar 20, 2016 8:48 pm

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Alistair Campbell
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Re: Nakamura "J'adoube" Controversy

Post by Alistair Campbell » Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:01 pm

Martin Benjamin wrote: In general, snooker players and golfers are rigorous at owning up to any inadvertent infringements, even when not spotted by officials or TV cameras.
Hmm. I suspect that there is more cheating in golf than meets the eye.
MJMcCready wrote:Another odd thing about the Naka incident is that the king didn't actually need adjusting as it was already placed in the center of the square!
Back to the matter at hand, and generalising slightly, when do you ever see someone “j’adoubing?”

I would suggest:

1. At the start of a game. In particular make sure you point those knights in the right direction.
2. When a piece is accidentally displaced (“haha – I’m not resigning yet!” as you knock over your king reaching for your wine-gums)
3. Straightening up a piece that has just moved (often I see this in the order – move, press clock, adjust – which is a bit naughty)
4. Suddenly noticing a piece that is off-centre
5. Adjusting your opponent’s pieces – I think this may be a nervous tic – I know of one junior who does this a lot, but hopefully this will be “coached” out of him
6. When you realize you are about to blunder and are trying to get away with it.

In all bar one of these, either it is clear what is happening, and/or “J’adoube” or “adjust” is said well in advance of the action.

Some players may be more pre-disposed to adjusting pieces, even if they are centrally placed, but in general, once the game has started most players will centralise their pieces on the appropriate square. In short, calling “j’adoube” in arrears almost always would appear to be an admission of guilt. Is Naka a compulsive “j’adouber”?

People do strange things under pressure, and often things they regret. Do people “revert to type” as Nick says, or can such behaviour be “out of character”? Is it possible to convince yourself that you are innocent when you are guilty?

I think we are into the realms of psychology here, but this feels like someone is having difficulty coming clean.

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