Proposed British Chess Championship Qualifying Regulations

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Proposed British Chess Championship Qualifying Regulations

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:18 am

Matthew Turner wrote: The changes involve a big financial hit to the Championships (in the short term?), everyone is aware of that, so I assume that contingencies are in place for dealing with it.
There's no mention of any financial constraints in the paper. Is it likely that whatever changes are proposed for implementation will be discussed at the April Finance meeting? If the Championships are likely to be loss making or dependent on sponsorship, attendees need to be aware of this.

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Proposed British Chess Championship Qualifying Regulations

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:33 am

Matthew Turner wrote: One very minor query I would have is whether qualifiers for 2017 can carry over their place to 2018.

I’ve never really understood the logic of deferred entry. Well, I understand that it boosts the chances of somebody coming and handing over some cash to play, but I’ve never understood it in in the context of having a coherent qualification procedure.

If you’re good enough and qualify this year - play this year.

If you want to play next year show you meet the standard by qualifying next year. If you can’t/don’t then why assume the person has met the standard.

Its obviously not the most pressing issue facing the Championship and I wouldn’t organise march on the ECF Offices in an attempt to get in changed, but if we are having a shake-up I would suggest deferred entry is one thing that could and should find it’s way to the scrap heap.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Proposed British Chess Championship Qualifying Regulations

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:59 am

Jonathan Bryant wrote: I would suggest deferred entry is one thing that could and should find it’s way to the scrap heap.
If Congresses taking place in May, June and July continue to be allowed to offer qualification places, some form of deferral may still be necessary. This problem exists with the notion of using a Grand Prix system for qualification. You don't know the qualifiers for certain until the Grand Prix has ended.

Ian Kingston
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Re: Proposed British Chess Championship Qualifying Regulations

Post by Ian Kingston » Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:06 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote:I’ve never really understood the logic of deferred entry.
I would imagine that it allows late qualifiers who have already made clashing holiday arrangements etc. to play, or for those qualifying unexpectedly to save up for an expensive fortnight (as was).

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Proposed British Chess Championship Qualifying Regulations

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:16 pm

Ian Kingston wrote:
Jonathan Bryant wrote:I’ve never really understood the logic of deferred entry.
I would imagine that it allows late qualifiers who have already made clashing holiday arrangements etc. to play, or for those qualifying unexpectedly to save up for an expensive fortnight (as was).

Well indeed - see the sentence in my post that immediately follows the one that you quote.

Neither of scenarios you cite - whilst real enough per se - are related to qualifying logic. You’re either good enough in a given year and you can prove that or you are not/cannot.

If the object is to have a coherent qualifying system then deferred entry makes no sense. Neither, btw, do nominations. I’m pleased to see that they may (mostly) be getting the boot.

Ian Kingston
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Re: Proposed British Chess Championship Qualifying Regulations

Post by Ian Kingston » Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:53 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote:Neither of scenarios you cite - whilst real enough per se - are related to qualifying logic.
Indeed - but the provision seems reasonable for amateur players.

Chris Rice
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Re: Proposed British Chess Championship Qualifying Regulations

Post by Chris Rice » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:05 pm

I totally agree with Jon on this one. In football, it would be the equivalent if you qualify from the play offs from the Championship to the Premier League and then argue that the club weren't expecting to qualify this late, they don't have the money or the time to buy more players and can they therefore defer the promotion till the following year. If this did happen I suspect they would promote another team in its place.

E Michael White
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Re: Proposed British Chess Championship Qualifying Regulations

Post by E Michael White » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:22 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote:I’ve never really understood the logic of deferred entry. Well, I understand that it boosts the chances of somebody coming and handing over some cash to play, but I’ve never understood it in in the context of having a coherent qualification procedure.If you’re good enough and qualify this year - play this year. If you want to play next year show you meet the standard by qualifying next year. If you can’t/don’t then why assume the person has met the standard.
There should be at least some correlation between playing strength this year and next year with a few exceptions. If you think otherwise the basis of the grading system, assessing a players rating against the previous rating of other players, goes up in smoke as does a qualification system which mentions grades.

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Proposed British Chess Championship Qualifying Regulations

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:43 am

Ian Kingston wrote:
Jonathan Bryant wrote:Neither of scenarios you cite - whilst real enough per se - are related to qualifying logic.
Indeed - but the provision seems reasonable for amateur players.

Well it’s all opinions of course, but I tend to disagree. Bottom Line: If you defer a player and they qualify next year anyway it makes no difference. If you defer a player and they don’t qualify you have subverted and weakened the qualification system - which makes no sense at all, least of all when you are trying to strengthen that system.

I do have some sympathy for people who have previously played but will no longer be able to enter the Championship under any new regime. That said, bottom of the list of people I would feel sorry for are those who consciously chose to make themselves unavailable to play.

E Michael White wrote:There should be at least some correlation between playing strength this year and next year with a few exceptions ....
Not sure I agree with your working out, but anyway more importantly this is an argument for everybody who qualifies this year automatically qualifying for next year. That would at least be a coherent policy. What you say is not an argument for a person simply choosing not to play this year and going next year instead, though.

NickFaulks
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Re: Proposed British Chess Championship Qualifying Regulations

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:32 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote: Bottom Line: If you defer a player and they qualify next year anyway it makes no difference.
No difference indeed. They won't be able to play next year either because they cannot make the necessary rearrangement of their life in time.

Jaimie Wilson
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Re: Proposed British Chess Championship Qualifying Regulations

Post by Jaimie Wilson » Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:54 pm

Hi Everyone,

I don't contribute often on here and I'm neither involved in chess politics nor au fait with the latest goings on at the ECF. I just wanted to wish the ECF luck because as I see it they have a very delicate balancing act on their hands here. On the one hand you want a strong main Championship which attracts as many strong players possible with a decent Major Open supporting it. On the other hand, you want to incentivise people who do well in Weekend tournaments and those who aspire to reach a higher level.

I am thinking of people who are strong players but who are only able to play in one or two congresses a year - which may or may not be FIDE rated - so they cannot really participate in any 'Grand Prix'. These players may be underrated because they simply haven't had the chance to play enough (or in some cases any) FIDE rated games in order to establish a reliable rating.

I see there are 355 English players rated over 2200 but only 142 of them are active. If this proposal can get some of these people back to help drive up standards without 'killing the dream' for lower rated players who play well enough to deserve a chance to play at the British or the Major then that will be great!

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Proposed British Chess Championship Qualifying Regulations

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:01 pm

Jaimie Wilson wrote:
I see there are 355 English players rated over 2200 but only 142 of them are active. If this proposal can get some of these people back to help drive up standards without 'killing the dream' for lower rated players who play well enough to deserve a chance to play at the British or the Major then that will be great!
Unless they have FM titles from a past life of being above 2300, their only method of qualification under the proposed new regulations will be through "long" tournaments such as Hastings and the London Classic FIDE Open or accumulating enough Grand Prix points to finish in the qualifying group.

If the perceived problem is too many players under 2000 in the British Championship, the solution is to close the routes that qualify most of them, namely the automatic places to juniors with grades above 180 and the automatic award of a place, or normally places, to every five round FIDE Open that musters twenty players. You don't need to take away the long standing rights of Congresses such as Blackpool, Scarborough, Kidlington etc.

Stewart Reuben
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Re: Proposed British Chess Championship Qualifying Regulations

Post by Stewart Reuben » Sun Jan 29, 2017 4:00 pm

A player qualifies for the British Championship. His health breaks down, precludig him from playing. So the playing right is deferred for a year, I see nothing wrong in that.
Too many weak players have been allowed to play in the British in the past. This has the advantage of attracting entry fee funds and disadvantages of making the event less competitive and less prestigious to qualify for.
There is now a prospective sponsor for the event and he is aware of the problem of a weak tail. Some of his money may go towards overcoming the shortfall from the weaker players.
You also have the probldem that those weaker players can only then play in the Major Open. That can be made more attractive with an injection of funds.

But it would require about £100,000 per year to achieve everything I thought was desirable for the British.

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Gavin Strachan
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Re: Proposed British Chess Championship Qualifying Regulations

Post by Gavin Strachan » Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:23 pm

Has this brought up because of the opponent Adams had to face in the last round last year? He had a great tournament and brings a bit of romance to the event like the FA cup.

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Matthew Webb
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Re: Proposed British Chess Championship Qualifying Regulations

Post by Matthew Webb » Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:34 am

I am not 100% sure but does this mean I become ineligible under the proposed "pre qualification" rules? I am untitled, FIDE: 2225 ECF: 238

Note: I did once finish 3rd= (7½/11) in the Major Open (about 6 years ago) so maybe this would carry over?

I would absolutely love to play in the British Championships and completely understand why the ECF would choose to refine their qualification conditions/restrictions.

In my opinion, only players who have a realistic chance to become British Champion should qualify, this would rule out most players even many GMs however, if players like Jack Rudd go on one of their epic demolishing-everyone-in-sight runs, a little like Leicester City last season, I can see the appeal of having 2200-2400 players in the mix too!

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