4ncl Congress Entry Conditions Change

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
Nick Burrows
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4ncl Congress Entry Conditions Change

Post by Nick Burrows » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:35 pm

4NCL entry conditions wrote: FIDE Rated U2050: Open to FIDE rated players rated below 2050 FIDE and ECF graded players graded below 180 ECF *
As pointed out by Roger in another thread.

My grades are: 1920 FIDE / 180 ECF, which makes me ineligible by a single ECF point.

It's clear that the ECF --> FIDE conversion formula is broken. Whenever faced with a team of converted grades in the 4ncl proper, they are typically in the region of 100 points higher.
In the previous three 4ncl events, there have been 25 unique players, who would now be disqualified from entering the U2050. Their average rating profile is 1963 FIDE / 184.6 ECF. This tallies closely with my 1920 FIDE / 180 ECF.

Based on this small sample, the conversion would be 1915 FIDE/180 ECF or 2050 FIDE/193 ECF

Why does the conversion simply not match the exact averages of players per ECF Grade level?


My 2 main criteria for an enjoyable tournament are:

1.Competitive games
2.Trying to win the tournament and win a prize.

Out of the 25 players now ineligible, 11 chose to play in the open, 14 in the major. The 11 open players faced an average rating discrepancy of 194 FIDE points per game. The 14 major players faced a discrepancy of 143 points per game. Therefore, as suspected, a player of my profile has a less competitive tournament playing in an open vs a major. The chance of winning either the tournament or a prize also shrivel. The result is sadly, that the likelihood of me playing in these congresses also decreases. I wonder if correspondingly, the slightly weaker major's will increase the chances of others entering - perhaps.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: 4ncl Congress Entry Conditions Change

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:59 pm

Nick Burrows wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:35 pm
It's clear that the ECF --> FIDE conversion formula is broken.
I originally changed the formula from ECF * 8 + 600 to ECF * 7.5 + 700 a few years ago when it was part of my Directorship. Lots of theorists explained I must be wrong, because the way the Maths works guarantees that it should be * 8 + n. However, when confronted with a graph and a line of best fit, they couldn't explain why the gradient was closer to 7.5 than 8.

I did the statistics based on the population of players in December 2017. I agree with you; I found that a better formula would be ECF * 7.5 + 650. But it is no longer part of my Directorship. I reported my findings, and there was no appetite to change it. There was a brief appetite to consider restoring it to ECF * 8 though, even though the gradient is still nearer 7.5 than 8.

A better solution all round would be to have an Elo system that had an equivalence to the FIDE Elos, so you don't need a conversion formula at all.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: 4ncl Congress Entry Conditions Change

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:03 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:59 pm
A better solution all round would be to have an Elo system that had an equivalence to the FIDE Elos, so you don't need a conversion formula at all.
So the national grades would be just as broken as the international ones? Great idea.

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Re: 4ncl Congress Entry Conditions Change

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:19 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:03 pm
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:59 pm
A better solution all round would be to have an Elo system that had an equivalence to the FIDE Elos, so you don't need a conversion formula at all.
So the national grades would be just as broken as the international ones? Great idea.
Certain people in England seem to think they're broken, but this does not appear to be a view shared widely internationally.

When people in England do express that opinion, the normal argument put forward is that the ECF grade is better because it includes more games; all the games they play, perhaps. If those people are right, then the methodology used to calculate the rating is independent of this.

Ian Thompson
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Re: 4ncl Congress Entry Conditions Change

Post by Ian Thompson » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:27 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:59 pm
A better solution all round would be to have an Elo system that had an equivalence to the FIDE Elos, so you don't need a conversion formula at all.
But you'd still have players with an ECF Elo rating and a FIDE Elo rating that were different (even in the event that the average of the two ratings across all players with both was the same), unless you adopted the French approach. That would still mean that tournament organisers running rating limited events would have to specify which counted for their tournament (one, the other, either, both). Unless the organiser's choice was both that would still result in players being unhappy that they are ineligible to play on the chosen criteria when they would have been eligible on one of the others.

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Adam Raoof
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Re: 4ncl Congress Entry Conditions Change

Post by Adam Raoof » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:36 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:27 pm
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:59 pm
A better solution all round would be to have an Elo system that had an equivalence to the FIDE Elos, so you don't need a conversion formula at all.
But you'd still have players with an ECF Elo rating and a FIDE Elo rating that were different (even in the event that the average of the two ratings across all players with both was the same), unless you adopted the French approach. That would still mean that tournament organisers running rating limited events would have to specify which counted for their tournament (one, the other, either, both). Unless the organiser's choice was both that would still result in players being unhappy that they are ineligible to play on the chosen criteria when they would have been eligible on one of the others.
Tell me about it...

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Re: 4ncl Congress Entry Conditions Change

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:36 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:27 pm
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:59 pm
A better solution all round would be to have an Elo system that had an equivalence to the FIDE Elos, so you don't need a conversion formula at all.
But you'd still have players with an ECF Elo rating and a FIDE Elo rating that were different (even in the event that the average of the two ratings across all players with both was the same), unless you adopted the French approach. That would still mean that tournament organisers running rating limited events would have to specify which counted for their tournament (one, the other, either, both). Unless the organiser's choice was both that would still result in players being unhappy that they are ineligible to play on the chosen criteria when they would have been eligible on one of the others.
Sure, but you would at least avoid the arguments about what the conversion formula would be.

The optimal solution would be to get everything FIDE-rated in the first place, but given the current regulations on time limits, that isn't going to happen.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: 4ncl Congress Entry Conditions Change

Post by Michael Farthing » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:40 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:27 pm

But you'd still have players with an ECF Elo rating and a FIDE Elo rating that were different (even in the event that the average of the two ratings across all players with both was the same), unless you adopted the French approach. That would still mean that tournament organisers running rating limited events would have to specify which counted for their tournament (one, the other, either, both). Unless the organiser's choice was both that would still result in players being unhappy that they are ineligible to play on the chosen criteria when they would have been eligible on one of the others.
Why not simply let such players choose which of their two ratings they themselves wish to use?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 4ncl Congress Entry Conditions Change

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:59 pm
However, when confronted with a graph and a line of best fit, they couldn't explain why the gradient was closer to 7.5 than 8.
As far as I recall, it was noted by Richard Bates (I think) that if you looked at the table used by FIDE to express rating gain against points scored, that over the range 0-200, most of the cells implied a 7.5 relationship to the ECF equivalent. The point being that if you took a set of results, rated them by FIDE rules and by ECF rules, the likely gradient between the two would come out at 7.5.

The extension of the FIDE scale down to 1000 was deflationary for those in the 1800 to 2200 range. That took place at around the same time as the ECF listened to those who shouted at it that the ECF system was broken and needed recalibrating to move everyone up. No great surprise then that the two have moved out of sync.

Arguably though, players with ECF grades above 175 shouldn't be allowed in the second section of weekend tournaments unless it's expected that the top section will be exceptionally strong and well supported by titled players.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 4ncl Congress Entry Conditions Change

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:51 pm

Michael Farthing wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:40 pm
Why not simply let such players choose which of their two ratings they themselves wish to use?
That's more or less how the 4NCL does it for the 80 point board order rule. Tournaments probably need stronger rules.

It's not just eligibility though, pairings get distorted when the seeding order used doesn't reflect the actual playing strength of the field.

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Re: 4ncl Congress Entry Conditions Change

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:53 pm

Michael Farthing wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:40 pm
Why not simply let such players choose which of their two ratings they themselves wish to use?
That would be equivalent to a rule saying that the organiser will use the lowest rating, wouldn't it?
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:47 pm
Arguably though, players with ECF grades above 175 shouldn't be allowed in the second section of weekend tournaments unless it's expected that the top section will be exceptionally strong and well supported by titled players.
It also depends on the makeup of the event; for example, at the London Chess Classic, we run the risk of the foreigners who came to play in the Weekday/Weekend tournament the year before, who thus have an ECF grade, not understanding why they are ineligible because they have a rating of 2000 for a Under 2050 section because they have an ECF grade in excess of 180. There's no solution that can be used universally, but I think Congress Organisers in particular would be a lot happier if there was one list only in existence, if only to get around the arguments of which one you use.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: 4ncl Congress Entry Conditions Change

Post by Michael Farthing » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:56 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:53 pm
Michael Farthing wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:40 pm
Why not simply let such players choose which of their two ratings they themselves wish to use?
That would be equivalent to a rule saying that the organiser will use the lowest rating, wouldn't it?
Yes!!! You've got the idea.
(a) The individual cares massively if he/she perceives an injustice because one of his/her ratings is favoured over the other.
(b) The same individual would probably not like someone else taking getting an advantage in the same way.

However the strength of feeling about (a) is likely to be much much more than the strength of feeling about (b).
Therefore the peace loving organiser would be wise to deal with (a) and when (b) arises simply say, "Well, that's the rule - same for everyone".

[But thinking about it I suppose there would need to be some means of outlawng outliers - eg a FIDE rating based on 8 games and massively less than an ECF grade based on 30 games and several years history]

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Re: 4ncl Congress Entry Conditions Change

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:06 pm

Michael Farthing wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:56 pm
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:53 pm
Michael Farthing wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:40 pm
Why not simply let such players choose which of their two ratings they themselves wish to use?
That would be equivalent to a rule saying that the organiser will use the lowest rating, wouldn't it?
Yes!!! You've got the idea.
(a) The individual cares massively if he/she perceives an injustice because one of his/her ratings is favoured over the other.
(b) The same individual would probably not like someone else taking getting an advantage in the same way.

However the strength of feeling about (a) is likely to be much much more than the strength of feeling about (b).
My experience is that the strength of feeling about (b) is much more than (a). I regularly get entries from people trying to shark a section, who then complain bitterly when they perceive others are doing the same.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: 4ncl Congress Entry Conditions Change

Post by Michael Farthing » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:13 pm

Ah well! You're the expert.

Nick Burrows
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Re: 4ncl Congress Entry Conditions Change

Post by Nick Burrows » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:17 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:47 pm
Arguably though, players with ECF grades above 175 shouldn't be allowed in the second section of weekend tournaments unless it's expected that the top section will be exceptionally strong and well supported by titled players.
What do you base that on?

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