2018 World Championship in London

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Brian Towers
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Brian Towers » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:40 pm

David Shepherd wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:16 pm
One of the things that could be tried is to reduce the number of "rest" days. So for example a format could be six rounds then a rest day, four rounds then a rest day, then two rounds.
I can see how this would make the match shorter but not necessarily how it would lead to more wins unless older players like Gelfand, Anand or Svidler were playing. This generation of young top professionals take health and fitness very seriously and I doubt if such a schedule would impact them very much.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

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JustinHorton
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by JustinHorton » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:57 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:36 pm
Here is a radical idea to ensure fighting chess in a match (similar to the 'first to x number of wins' ideas): don't start counting results in the match until a decisive game has occurred. And then play 11 more games after that.
Cool, but all proposals to have more games, including mine, have to counter the objection that you will need to find more money for such a match, both for the venue and for the players.
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:18 pm

The difference with my proposal is maybe that players end up displaying more opening preparation?
The sponsors would only pay for the last 12 games...

(If you are going to have an 'unpaid' or at least poorly-paid-in-a-room-somewhere portion of the match, have it at the start.)

Slightly less radical: have a mechanism to force a result in the first game (e.g. blitz after the first game if drawn), and then play the rest of the games as normal. This still runs into the objections about having tie-breaks before a match.
Last edited by Christopher Kreuzer on Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:19 pm

Martin Benjamin wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:03 am
because I don't think we are quite at the death of chess at the very highest level by forced draw, but a FischerRandom World Championship cycle (rather than just the final) is an attractive option.
As far as myself and many others are concerned, FischerRandom is not chess - it is a different game entirely.

By all means have a world title for it and everything, but that is what it is.

We wouldn't be having all this hand wringing if Carlsen had actually won his won game at the start. And also very likely not if the champion still had "draw odds" - would Caruana have played 24 h3?! in game eight *then*??
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

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David Shepherd
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by David Shepherd » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:53 pm

Brian Towers wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:40 pm
David Shepherd wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:16 pm
One of the things that could be tried is to reduce the number of "rest" days. So for example a format could be six rounds then a rest day, four rounds then a rest day, then two rounds.
I can see how this would make the match shorter but not necessarily how it would lead to more wins unless older players like Gelfand, Anand or Svidler were playing. This generation of young top professionals take health and fitness very seriously and I doubt if such a schedule would impact them very much.
No I don't think it would make a huge difference but it would make mistakes slightly more likely and probably make the flow of the tournament feel better.

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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Geoff Chandler » Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:00 pm

I'm beginning to think Carlsen's draw offer was pure Lasker.

Carlsen has just played 31...Ra8 and offers a draw.



The best White move appears to be 32.Nh2 we then get this forced sequence.
(forced as in if Caruana avoids it he gets a really bad position)



After 31...Ra8 Caruana spent 8 minutes studying the board and spotting the draw
sequence. (if a dip like me saw it - I posted this line whilst the game was still on
on another site, then he saw it.) he looked to see if it could be avoided without
getting walloped. Nothing there, so agreed to the draw.

It explains a few things.

Carlsen is happy with draw. Caruana is not.

Instead of playing the draw Carlsen tempts Caruana into avoiding it.

Caruana could have played on with a 'show me' attitude but why if avoiding it
makes his position worse. So, in a Lasker type return ploy Caruana takes the
draw and lets the wrath descend on Carlsen for making the draw offer in the first place.

(that last sentence is speculation - actually it all is. But it reads OK and is plausible.)

Stewart Reuben
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Stewart Reuben » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:08 pm

Alex > people might tune in in the hope that they're not going to watch another draw.<

You may not have noticed but the rate of play changes tomorrow! If all rapid play and blitz games are drawn, surely that would be exciting news!

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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:26 pm

Stewart Reuben wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:08 pm
Alex > people might tune in in the hope that they're not going to watch another draw.<

You may not have noticed but the rate of play changes tomorrow! If all rapid play and blitz games are drawn, surely that would be exciting news!
You have not noticed that I wrote that after Game 11, but before Game 12 - which was played at the same rate of play. :wink:

Brian Towers
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Brian Towers » Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:29 pm

David Shepherd wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:53 pm
No I don't think it would make a huge difference but it would make mistakes slightly more likely and probably make the flow of the tournament feel better.
I find the idea that people might want the two players to play bad chess quite shocking.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

Chris Rice
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Chris Rice » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:20 pm

Kramnik was in fine form roasting both players after the final Classical game on the Russian Chess Federation site. However its his penultimate paragraph that got me the most as you could also level the same criticisms about Kramnik himself:

"No matter how the match ends, Carlsen needs to think again after the match about everything happening, about his motivation. He needs to answer the question why he plays chess after all. This match seems to be exclusively about his keeping the title, but I don’t think you need one if fed up with it and needing it just as a kind of fetish. It will give you no joy whatsoever. Besides victories, you need chess to be a source of joy. This joy is about overcoming yourself, giving you a drive, a boost of adrenaline! This is about discovering inner strength in yourself and delivering great chess when it comes to a decisive game! I think Magnus has forgotten about it lately for some reason, which is a somewhat sad thing to see..."

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:32 pm

I assume you mean the Kramnik of circa 2004-05 rather than the present day - often quite enterprising - player?
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Chris Rice
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Chris Rice » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:36 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:32 pm
I assume you mean the Kramnik of circa 2004-05 rather than the present day - often quite enterprising - player?
Absolutely, I was referring to the present day Kramnik.

Stewart Reuben
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Stewart Reuben » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:57 pm

At the press conference after the 11th game, Carlsen said something like, 'If Caruana wants a draw, that is what it will be. If he wants to win, then we will see.' I interpreted that, to me, his mind set would be such that he would be satisfied with a draw.
Then the American tried for perhaps a little more than his position was worth and, in due course, they both bailed out into a draw.

I may have overlooked it, but I haven't seen the comment that, becoming World Chess Champion for the first time, is like a validation of your entire life. Retaining the title is less important. Thus the challenger always has a mountain to climb.

Over 30 years ago, Karpov said to me, The World Championship title is worth about €1 million per year. That was a good motive for him. Money is a very honourable pursuit.

Nick Grey
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by Nick Grey » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:39 pm

So much putting the punter on the street to sleep that I wonder what are the odds for 2 failed drugs tests?

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JustinHorton
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Re: 2018 World Championship in London

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:10 am

My modest proposal
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

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