Female Player Rule

[Matthew Turner]

Geoff,
I try to play in Scotland when I can and I would like to support the SNCL. However, at the moment there isn't a huge amount of point in me playing, because there are not many strong players taking part.
Last year the highest ranked player was Andrew Muir (number 26 on the Scottish grading list - although probably about 17 when you strip out some foreign players) but he only played one game. Next came Joe Redpath (number 28). I hope the SNCL will be a sucess but it has some way to go to compare with major national leagues.

[Ben Purton]

Hmmmm Geoff Firstly my team has the best team spirit in my view of all the teams. Simon is easily one of the most talented U20 we have and of course i expect him to be demoralised as an induvidual playing in our 3rds.

In fact as you like your facts etc etc. We have had alot of Scots venture to play for us.....

aagaard,mcnab,muir,tweedie, tweedie 2 , mcgowan, redpath, kafka, grassie, John Trevlious(spelling), etc etc

[Geoff Chandler]

Hi Mathew.

"at the moment there isn't a huge amount of point in me playing, because there are
not many strong players taking part."

That had me laughing.

You were stuck for an answer so you dived for the grading list.

"Him I can play....him I can play...Him I can't play."

Hilarious.

I never asked will you play in the SNCL.
I asked have you?

Hi Ben,

Have a wee word with the lad and get him to cheer up and prove he belongs in a higher team.
I'm sure someone else would only be too glad to play.

Better to have one volunteer than 10 pressed me.

I know all the Scots lad who play in the Europen Team League (the old 4NCL).

Some of them play in the SNCL as well but do make the cut in Mathew's hot list.
I'll tell them to stay at home less they are lowering the tone.

[Matthew Turner]

Geoff,
I notice that you didn't actually play in the SNCL in 2007/2008, 2008/9 or 2009/2010. The League cannot really have kindled your interest in the game because you only managed 5 rapidplay games in the entire period.
Scottish Chess can be very proud of their website - you can find out all sorts there.

[Geoff Chandler]

Hi Mathew.

Yes the Scottish Website does have a lot of good information.
It does not tell you anything about my personal circumstances or my health.
And that is a matter I do not wish to discuss in an open forum.

Thank you in advance for being so understanding.

So to try and drag the discussion away from personal matters
I think a little recap is in order:

It appears I had the termerity to question your post and prove a point.

I think I succeeded because you dropped it and came back at right angles by
telling us all that you are too strong to play in certain chess events.
'Not worthwhile' I think were your words.

Which had me in stiches as it's clearly waving;

"go away I've got a higher grade than you."

Now if I'm meant to cow down like those other poor lads in another
thread did in the face of the numbers when their chess playing ability was
being questioned because they dare to stand for office.
Then I'm afraid you have the wrong guy.

Mathew the numbers after your name mean you are good at chess.
They do not make you right. it's a game. You good at a game. Nothing more.

I never gave a hoot about the numbers when I played and
I certainly don't give a jack about them now.

So the grade gambit clearly failed.

Though I thank you dearly for the mental picture of you flicking through the
Scottish grading list seeing who you can and cannot play.

So then my playing career and interest in the SNCL was brought up.?

Why the sudden interest in this ("not worthwhile") event?
I clearly remember;

"The 4NCL is the single most important event in British Chess."

I shot that down in flames and not once did I compare
it with to the SNCL. I compared it with The British Championship
(I played in that in Eastbourne 1973 - save you looking it up).

I happen to mention that Scotland (one of the 4 Nations) runs
it's own National League. Nothing more.

...er...that's it so far.

Damn should not have told you what year I played in the BC.
Missed having mental picture of you ordering all the backlog of BCM's.

(I did patheric in one of the major/minors - spent my time screwing around -ahh the gold old days. sic)

[Alan Walton]

Hi,

Please correct me if I am wrong

The 4NCL isn't an English league specifically, it is the Four Nations Chess League (England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland). There has been teams from Ireland, Wales and England previously/currently, unsure that there has been a Scottish team before.

Comparing the SNCL with the 4NCL is like comparing chalk and cheese. Can English teams enter the SNCL? If not then you would have to compare the SNCL with English Club Champs (and the Welsh and Irish equivalents) not the 4NCL where entry is open to any team in the British Isles

Remember the 4NCL is an independent entity away from the national federations.

[LozCooper]

Hmmmm....

Mathew Turner quote:

"The 4NCL is the single most important event in British Chess."

English Chess. Scotland runs it's own succesful NCL.

I know some of the Scots lad drop South to play in it but
the English NCL is barley mentioned North of Newcastle.

(And I doubt if the 4NCL overshadows The British Championship.)

Now if you are a 'supposed' potential sponsor reading this then
please do not be off by what follows. I am expressing a free opinion
and it usually goes cock-eyed with everyone else's.

The 4NCL is over-rated.

The rules appear to have drawn up by a Civil Servant chasing a bonus.

CHESS turns over 70% of it's mag to these games. I dread these 4NCL editions.

There is nothing more boring than grade conscious players
playing team chess (sod the team, save the grade, I'm getting a draw).

Aagaard & Greet do their best but it must be a thankless task
shifting through some of these games.
And when they do hit a beauty you can sense their relief.
"At last something I can get teeth into."

Change the rules:
Play who you want to play in a team and make the games ungraded.

That would stop all this petty arguing and produce some good,
unshackled by fear, games.

Hmmmm....

Ben Purton quote 1:

"He should be in my 1st team, instead hes in my 3rd team and he frankly
loses through sheer lack of caring for being there.

Ben Purton Quote 2:

"Have a good team spirit and people play for the team."

Sorry for having a wee nit-pick Ben but these two don't quite match up.

If you have some lad losing though sheer lack of care because he cannot
get a higher board due to some obscure rule.
Then that cannot be beneficial to team spirit nor is it playing for the team.

I'm trying to fathom out why you feel the need to attack the 4NCL. Having read your posts you've made a number of negative comments and offered no constructive criticism and I'm curious as to the reasons behind it. It appears that Matthew's comment "The 4NCL is the single most important event in British Chess" seemed to have started it. At worst this is an opinion that he is entitled to have regardless of if you agree with it. You then correct him to "English Chess" despite the fact that several Welsh teams play in it and teams from Ireland have previously played and Scottish teams are also free to enter.

If the league is over-rated or not is your opinion, but no more or less valid than Matthew's claim.

You then proceed to insult the 4NCL board over their rules without saying anything about what it is, in particular, you don't like.

If you don't like the magazine CHESS then you don't have to buy it. I'm quite happy to point you in the direction of games from players such as Simon Williams if they aren't getting sufficient coverage in CHESS.

I'm also intrigued to know who the "grade conscious players playing team chess (sod the team, save the grade, I'm getting a draw)." are as I see little evidence of this either. My humble opinion is that the 4NCL is full of fighting chess. From the last weekend highest rated match: Bacrot-Adams, Haslinger-Hammer, McShane-Rowson, Hebden-Baburin, Gordon-Flear, Emms-Speelman, Pert-Grafl & Hunt-Arakhamia. No quick draws, just a hard fought match that ended 4-4 well into the seventh hour. Elsewhere I saw matches of all standards including a number of the bottom board games that were hard fought and only decided into the fifth hour and beyond in endgames.

You also want us to make the league unrated so no players can achieve norms and ratings.

I'm sure the 4NCL welcomes all feedback but equally they don't deserve to be attacked in this way.

Best wishes,
Lawrence

[Roger de Coverly]

It might not be a bad thing to a have a season without the 'female player rule' just to shake some female players out of complacency, so they weren't guaranteed a place in the league.

As a not entirely serious suggestion, there is one special category which is in plentiful supply at the 4NCL, is likely to increase in numbers in future years and would probably pay its own expenses. I refer of course to those of a veteran nature, so adopt a rule which said you have to have a female, an under 16 or an over 60/65. You might want to limit the rating or past attainment of the veteran though unless you wished for a team of Korchnoi and 7 * 2600.

[Geoff Chandler]

Hi Alan.

I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting the SNCL should be compared
to the Euro National league (the old 4NCL now the ENL).

Mathew must have misread my post and went off into the wilderness
telling us the SNCL is not worth while him playing in.
I doub t if this was a dig at the SNCL.
I think it was just a reminder to me how good his chess is.

This made me laugh as he threw in the grading card, I tossed it back out.

He stuck with the SNCL because he found I had not played in it for 4 years.
I did not want personal matters brought into the debate.
So I tossed that out.

(What me not playing in the SNCL has to do with the ENL I do not know.
I think the fact someone has dare to disagree with him has thrown him off course).

However if you wish to catch up, this is how things stand.

I have a new friend called Simon who is playing in a chess team (with high spirits )
but he cannot get into the first division because....

......and now I take over, we have foreign players hogging boards.

So I now have a British player possibly on the very verge of giving up the game.
And I've seen it happen before, because he cannot be given a platform
to display his natural talents.

Therefore I questioned Mathew's statement:

"The 4NCL is the single most important event in British Chess."

As it is stunting the growth of British players.

So here we are up to date and back on course.

Hi Loz:

I'll quote your words regarding Mathew's opinion.

" At worst this is an opinion that he is entitled to have regardless of if you agree with it. "

So I'll have the same option.

(or, as I am beginning to strongly suspect there is a pecking order in this forum
as to can and who can not have opinions).

But wait: then this appears.

"If the league is over-rated or not is your opinion, but no more or less valid than Matthew's claim. "

So I am being allowed an opinion.

Although I have to explain my opinion. You do not ask Mathew to explain his.

so what happend to:

"...your opinion, but no more or less valid than Matthew's claim."

However I will answer it.

The games published in CHESS covering 4NCL are usually boring - my opinion.

There no attack on CHESS. I often praise it to the skids and rec it when I can
even telling people where to go and buy it. Read the last Corner written a few days ago.

I just don't like the 4NCL reports and (now I don't to put pressure on any
of my friends so you please take my word for it) neither do some other chess players.

But I'll live with it and still buy the mag cos on the whole it's good and I can skip
pass the drossy stuff.

As for insulting the board.

"The rules appear to have drawn up by a Civil Servant chasing a bonus."

That's hardly an insult, it's a joke.

I'm still trying to my head around the opening post.

"A number of ideas were mentioned including relaxing the Div1 rule to be the same as Div2 (ie you can play a junior instead), scrapping the female rule in Div2 (to free up female players to play in Div1), making playing a female optional but awarding a bonus game point if you do, and scrapping the female player rule altogether."

(Did the Civil Servant get his bonus?)

Cannot see an 'attack' on the 4NCL just an opinion.

Finally I get:

"You also want us to make the league unrated so no players can achieve norms and ratings. "

Well if Norms and Ratings is your thing - then what can I say.

You like to see a good rise in the ratings and Norms.

Me I want to see good games of chess played between British players in
a League called the Four Nations League.

I can live without the ratings - remember, they are just a number and mean didley squat.

[Alan Walton]

Geoff,

A couple of points, when did the 4NCL change its name to the ENL?

Secondly, I am one of the lower rated players currently playing in the 1st Division, there are teams out there who have gained promotion up through the divisions. I first did this with my local club 3Cs and we stay there for 3 years (assisting in getting Stewart Haslinger and Stephen Gordon their GM titles). After we pulled out I found another excellent team in Pandora's Box who have in consecutive seasons got themselves from the old 4 Div upto Div 1, with only a couple of times drafting in non-English based players. Your friend may have to find a team with more serious aspirations of promotion.

The majority of teams which played this season are in the majority made of British based players (Wood Green 1 out of 16 boards over the last weekend only played 3 of these with non-British based players, Bacrot and Hammer and Barbican 1 had all British based players), so if you ignore nationality and look at residency may be a more applicable

[Sean Hewitt]

I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting the SNCL should be compared
to the Euro National league (the old 4NCL now the ENL).

What the heck is the Euro National league Geoff?

I have a new friend called Simon who is playing in a chess team (with high spirits )
but he cannot get into the first division because....

......and now I take over, we have foreign players hogging boards.

So I now have a British player possibly on the very verge of giving up the game.

Geoff,

You really should check your facts. A quick glance at the formiddable list of the Sharks registered players reveals that your new friend is the 22nd highest rated Shark. Above him in the list, "hogging all the boards" as you put it, is 1 German player. Yes, 1 player hogging all the boards.

Unless you're counting the two Welsh guys and the Scot as foreign!

[Roger de Coverly]

You really should check your facts. A quick glance at the formiddable list of the Sharks registered players reveals that your new friend is the 22nd highest rated Shark. Above him in the list, "hogging all the boards" as you put it, is 1 German player. Yes, 1 player hogging all the boards.

Unless you're counting the two Welsh guys and the Scot as foreign!

Ben's problem was that unlike last season's rule, his board order was locked by the September rating list and the 80 point rule. Therefore he couldn't offer a player with a lowish rating in September a board in a higher team, even if they gained loads of points in the subsequent lists.

[Matthew Turner]

Geoff,
I feel this discussion has probably run it's course and is distracting from an important issue. I will just finish by saying that I'm sure we both hope that we will one day meet at the SNCL when circumstances align themselves. I hope also that one day you will have the opportunity to travel South of the Border and experience the atmosphere of the 4NCL for yourself.

[Sean Hewitt]

Ben's problem was that unlike last season's rule, his board order was locked by the September rating list and the 80 point rule. Therefore he couldn't offer a player with a lowish rating in September a board in a higher team, even if they gained loads of points in the subsequent lists.

Roger - Thankfully the captain's meeting accepted my proposal that we should use the current rating list in future, rather than be locked into the September list, for exactly those reasons. The one caveat is the final weekend will use the March list as it's not reasonable to expect teams to use the 1st May list for a game on 2nd May.

You posted somewhere else (I think) about games against unrated players being rated. This was passed by the FIDE General Assembly but then vetoed by the Presidential Board (even though, I understand, that they don't have the authority to do this). Therefore games against unrated players will not be rated.

[Ola Winfridsson]

You posted somewhere else (I think) about games against unrated players being rated. This was passed by the FIDE General Assembly but then vetoed by the Presidential Board (even though, I understand, that they don't have the authority to do this). Therefore games against unrated players will not be rated.

Just out of curiosity, how did they propose to do it? Similar to the way ungraded players are treated in the ECF system, or some other way?