ECF to scrap its grading system

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Ian Thompson
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Re: ECF to scrap its grading system

Post by Ian Thompson » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:21 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:06 am
If there is such a creature as a junior who is not improving....
I thought it was well established that many juniors tend to have sudden jumps in standard of play followed by a plateau before another jump. So I would expect there to be a lot of juniors, who, even though the long-term trend is improvement, are not improving for a period of at least a few months.

David Sedgwick
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Re: ECF to scrap its grading system

Post by David Sedgwick » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:24 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:16 am
David Sedgwick wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:07 am
Am I right in thinking that FIDE do the exact opposite?
Hardly the exact opposite. I have not gone back and checked this case but If I remember it correctly, his k factor was reduced not because his results were good but because he had so many games reported in that period that k=40 whould have caused overshooting. This could have been up or down.
I stand corrected, although I suspect that in practice the upward "overshoot" is the more likely.

David Sedgwick
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Re: ECF to scrap its grading system

Post by David Sedgwick » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:29 am

Ian Thompson wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:21 am
NickFaulks wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:06 am
If there is such a creature as a junior who is not improving....
I thought it was well established that many juniors tend to have sudden jumps in standard of play followed by a plateau before another jump. So I would expect there to be a lot of juniors, who, even though the long-term trend is improvement, are not improving for a period of at least a few months.
I recall my first five grades:

1968 - 143
1969 - 139
1970 - 167
1971 - 164
1972 - 163

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF to scrap its grading system

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:56 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:06 am
If there is such a creature as a junior who is not improving, their rating will also be given an upward kick. Reasonable tradeoff?
It was a long standing hack to the Clarke system from about the 1970s onwards, that junior grade + Something was used in the calculations. "Something" was initially 5 points, then 10, and then later an age related addition. The perception from the 1960s had been that the grades of the then top adult players had been drifting downwards.

Stewart Reuben
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Re: ECF to scrap its grading system

Post by Stewart Reuben » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:01 pm

For those who find have difficulty finding Brian's paper on the ECF website (like me) it is
https://www.englishchess.org.uk/grading-consultation/

For those who don't know: If 700/k is exceeded by the number of games in a period, then the player's rating will be distorted. This does not just hapen with juniors, but also blitz and rapidplay ratings. So k=40 is a mere 18 games in a month. k=20 it is 35. Of course, a player's rating can go down too much a well as rise. For such exteremely acive players,It is better to base the new rating solely on the current month; or to use k=700/no. of games.
In the early days Elo had great problems with players who were new to the list, but of already established playing strength. I know my own initial USCF rating caused concern in 1963. It was about 100 points too high at 2350. Monthly lists, ratings going down to 1000 and rating after just 5 games ameliorate this problem.

Brian, currently I think the lowest grade possible is 0. What will it be when the changes are made?

Roger, in the earliest versions of the Clarke system, players could LOSE gradng points even though they won the game.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF to scrap its grading system

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:08 pm

Stewart Reuben wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:01 pm
Roger, in the earliest versions of the Clarke system, players could LOSE gradng points even though they won the game.
Hence the 40 point cutoff, again which like junior additions was a 1960s development.

If the proposed system is copying the FIDE one with a 400 point cutoff, that can also act to hold down the ratings of improved players and protect those of established players by restricting the loss and gain when the result goes totally the other way.

Stewart Reuben
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Re: ECF to scrap its grading system

Post by Stewart Reuben » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:36 pm

Roger >FIDE one with a 400 point cutoff<

I chose the 400 point cutoff to encourage stronger players to play in Open Swisses. The late Mikko Markulla wanted it to be 500 points.

NickFaulks
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Re: ECF to scrap its grading system

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:54 pm

Stewart Reuben wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:36 pm
I chose the 400 point cutoff
Wasn't the original choice 350, later changed to 400?

Simon Brown
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Re: ECF to scrap its grading system

Post by Simon Brown » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:04 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:08 pm
Stewart Reuben wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:01 pm
Roger, in the earliest versions of the Clarke system, players could LOSE gradng points even though they won the game.
Hence the 40 point cutoff, again which like junior additions was a 1960s development.
No, that was a later development, mid-seventies I'd say. It was 50 points when I started playing in 1967

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: ECF Monthly Grading Consultation

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:05 pm

IMO there is nothing wrong with this section having a thread on the topic as well.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

David Sedgwick
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Re: ECF to scrap its grading system

Post by David Sedgwick » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:18 pm

Simon Brown wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:04 pm
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:08 pm
Stewart Reuben wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:01 pm
Roger, in the earliest versions of the Clarke system, players could LOSE gradng points even though they won the game.
Hence the 40 point cutoff, again which like junior additions was a 1960s development.
No, that was a later development, mid-seventies I'd say. It was 50 points when I started playing in 1967
My guess would be 1970.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF to scrap its grading system

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:30 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:18 pm
My guess would be 1970.
I think it was in place when Swiss events became large and open. Given that some of them were using random pairings, there would have been a wave of moans when 220 players got pairings against 120 players. As it was the pointlessness of such pairings was made in forums of the time, otherwise known as letters to or reports in BH Wood's magazine.

J T Melsom
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Re: ECF Monthly Grading Consultation

Post by J T Melsom » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:35 pm

I agree with Angus. Whilst there is nothing wrong with new threads partially duplicating others, its preferable that for discussion of substantive issues posters can follow the debate in one place rather than two, and are not then tempted or obliged to post the same comments twice over. Merger would enhance the discussion rather than diminish it. And yes I am aware that some posts have been repeating themselves in multiple threads for a number of years often with no real regard to the subject matter -contributing to the richness of the forum :roll:

Stewart Reuben
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Re: ECF to scrap its grading system

Post by Stewart Reuben » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:05 pm

Nick .Wasn't the original choice 350, later changed to 400?<

Yes, that is correct.

There was indeed a 50 point cutoff in the BCF system. That meant it was possible to win the game, but gain no points against somebody graded 50 points or more below you. But if you drew or lost, it was a catastrophe.

FIDE switched from rating a whole tournament by taking the average of the opponent's ratings to rating each game separately at my suggestion, relayed through Vishy Anand.
Taking the average of a non-linear set of numbers was nonsense, but very convenient as all tournaments were round robins, mostly for title norms, initially.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: ECF Monthly Grading Consultation

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:17 pm

Can we have a new thread discussing whether or not the other two threads should be merged? :twisted:

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