ECF Grading Proposals

General discussions about grading.
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Richard Bates
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by Richard Bates » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:01 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:59 pm
Richard Bates wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:49 pm
There’s also the issue of what grades are used when submitting results late or en masse - those at competition start, or those at time games were played.
If there were no leagues submitting monthly, that's rather less of a problem, since it would only be Congress and 4NCL players whose ECF grades/ratings changed.
Not sure about that - plenty of people play both after all. I should of course have added a third, and arguably better option - grade in the month of submission.

David Sedgwick
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by David Sedgwick » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:28 am

Adam Raoof wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:30 am
The cutoff for FIDE is the 26th of the month (with a little leeway) - any event that finishes after that goes into the next month's list.
That is not correct. It was an erroneous statement on the old ECF registration form.

An event which finishes two days before the end of the month (on the 29th in the case of a month of 31 days) and which is submitted on that day or the following day will be included in the list published on the 1st of the next month.

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Adam Raoof
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by Adam Raoof » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:37 am

David Sedgwick wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:28 am
Adam Raoof wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:30 am
The cutoff for FIDE is the 26th of the month (with a little leeway) - any event that finishes after that goes into the next month's list.
That is not correct. It was an erroneous statement on the old ECF registration form.

An event which finishes two days before the end of the month (on the 29th in the case of a month of 31 days) and which is submitted on that day or the following day will be included in the list published on the 1st of the next month.
The current form says

• supply the ECF with a completed FIDE rating file no later than 26th of the month in which the event is played (or 26th of the following month if the event ends after 26th)

David Sedgwick
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by David Sedgwick » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:44 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:37 am
The current form says

• supply the ECF with a completed FIDE rating file no later than 26th of the month in which the event is played (or 26th of the following month if the event ends after 26th)
Thanks Adam. I shall inform the IRO.

Brian Valentine
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by Brian Valentine » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:13 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:01 pm
David Robertson wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:16 pm
Brian Valentine wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:58 pm
The February update was published on 5th February.
LOL. He means the update due on Feb 29th
And when is it appearing, please? If ever.......
If things go well over the weekend, then I expect the March update to be published in the first half of next week. The plan is to move back to month end updates in April.

Brian Valentine
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by Brian Valentine » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:28 pm

E Michael White wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:10 pm
Hello Brian

I've only just started reading this stuff.

If you are going ELO type, how do you plan to ensure consistency across junior grades where some play a high proportion of adults and others play a much smaller proportion of adults?
I'm not exactly sure of the problem you are concerned about. A universal approach to all players in all sorts of subgroups is going to have weaknesses. Just look at the Chessbase article comparing juniors FIDE ratings in India compared with Russia. If I have understood your issue, then I think there is an underlying assumption that one subset of players has ratings out of line. My underlying presumption is that if one get the overall grades working OK, then the recycling of points from future results will tend to correct problems in subgroups.

I am keen that the new system, if introduced, is fit for purpose and continue to try new tests to the published proposal. So if you have a test you think I can use based on the current proposal and applied to my 2012-6 dataset, I may well try it out (the issue being less my willingness, but more my coding skills).

Mike Gunn
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by Mike Gunn » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:51 pm

Can I remind members of the forum that the deadline for submitting motions to Finance Council is 1.30pm on Thursday March 21st? So far (as Chairman of Council) I have received no motions and it is my estimation that if none is received then there will be no discussion at Council on April 27th of the move to monthly grading (which allows Council to express its view by voting).

Motions could express outright opposition, suggestion of a delay, trial period or variation on what is being proposed (e.g. just calculating grades for new members at the earliest possible opportunity), 3 digits instead of 4, improvements to the proposals and so on. Of course the Board will not necessarily follow exactly what Council decrees but if there is a clear view expressed then that will be difficult to ignore.

Motions must be proposed by requisitionists which comprise:
(a) any Director; or
(b) the Chairman of the Council; or
(c) the FIDE Delegate; or
(d) the Chairman of a Standing Committee; or
(e) any two Trustees; or
(f) any Representative Member of a Constituent Unit; or
(g) any two Representative Members of Counties; or
(h) any two Direct Members’ Representatives; or
(i) any two of a Trustee, a Representative Member of a County and a Direct
Members’ Representative; or
(j) any five Full Individual or Representative Members

If any member of Council or Organisation needs help in drafting a motion then please contact me and I will assist.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:25 pm

Mike Gunn wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:51 pm
So far (as Chairman of Council) I have received no motions and it is my estimation that if none is received then there will be no discussion at Council on April 27th of the move to monthly grading (which allows Council to express its view by voting).
The ECF Board are proposing the change. Why isn't it up to them to propose motions to both discuss or endorse the changes?

At the very least won't there be exceptional expenditure to implement the change?

Nick Grey
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by Nick Grey » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:44 pm

Apart from exceptional expenditure to Representative Members organisations for making changes to their current systems?

Mick Norris
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by Mick Norris » Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:38 pm

results of initial consultation
Do you agree with the Board’s decision to move to monthly grading? – 72% in favour
Do you agree with the Board’s proposal to use a four-figure Elo style system? – 80% in favour
900+ responses
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:03 pm

900 is a good sample size. No idea of how representative it is, but there's not a lot a consultation of that nature can do to affect that.

Nick Grey
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by Nick Grey » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:49 pm

Has the ECF digested the concerns of representative organisations?

Brian Towers
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by Brian Towers » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:27 pm

What is the connection (if any) between grading frequency and ECF membership?

My understanding (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that currently a new player could start playing league chess in September and not join the ECF until the following June or July without penalty. So, (s)he would receive a grade in the January list without paying for ECF membership but the "bill" would have to be settled one way or the other before the August list.

Would this change with monthly grading?
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:42 pm

I can't see why it would change, because the rules relating to payment of Bronze membership are a reaction to the way league chess is structured, and not to anything relating to the grading system.

Angus French
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by Angus French » Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:39 pm

Brian Towers wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:27 pm
My understanding (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that currently a new player could start playing league chess in September and not join the ECF until the following June or July without penalty...
The membership year runs 1 September to 31 August with a cut-off date for membership acquisition of, I think, 30 June. League players who are non-members may well be asked by leagues / clubs to join up, especially if they've played more games than permitted for a non-member.

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