Old Chestnut

Discussion about all aspects of the ECF County Championships.
Jon Underwood
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Re: Old Chestnut

Post by Jon Underwood » Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:37 pm

I wonder if having a women only section of the championship with say just 8 boards to start with and a proper trophy might be better - obviously a fairly limited number of entries initially but could perhaps work.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Old Chestnut

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:08 pm

Jon Underwood wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:37 pm
I wonder if having a women only section of the championship with say just 8 boards to start with and a proper trophy might be better
Middlesex once fielded an all female team quite probably over 16 boards , but that was twenty five years ago or so. It may have been in the days when there were "second" and "third" teams instead of graded limited ones. I seem to think Cathy Forbes was one of the instigators. Also more than twenty five years ago, the 4NCL could have copied Germany and tried to set up an all female league. Instead it opted for a "one of each gender" rule.

Neil Graham
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Re: Old Chestnut

Post by Neil Graham » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:42 pm

Jon Underwood wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:37 pm
I wonder if having a women only section of the championship with say just 8 boards to start with and a proper trophy might be better - obviously a fairly limited number of entries initially but could perhaps work.
There are 73 women players graded over 130 according to the ECF grading data. Very few counties would be able to field an eight board team. Going back to my original point, players should be included in county teams based on merit irrespective of any other criteria. Nottinghamshire have won four national championships in the past five years; each winning team included a female player.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Old Chestnut

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:55 pm

Neil Graham wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:42 pm
There are 73 women players graded over 130 according to the ECF grading data. Very few counties would be able to field an eight board team.
If the English chess establishment wanted to punt a female only competition, the "obvious" route would be to team up with the 4NCL and run it alongside the division 3S/4 matches. Four boards perhaps. But why would female players be that interested in a female only competition?

Neil Graham
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Re: Old Chestnut

Post by Neil Graham » Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:05 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:08 pm
Jon Underwood wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:37 pm
I wonder if having a women only section of the championship with say just 8 boards to start with and a proper trophy might be better
Middlesex once fielded an all female team quite probably over 16 boards , but that was twenty five years ago or so. It may have been in the days when there were "second" and "third" teams instead of graded limited ones. I seem to think Cathy Forbes was one of the instigators. Also more than twenty five years ago, the 4NCL could have copied Germany and tried to set up an all female league. Instead it opted for a "one of each gender" rule.
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=3959

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Old Chestnut

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:06 am

If this idea is considered, one also has to consider the definition of "female". I assume ECF doesn't want to discriminate against transgender players?

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Old Chestnut

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:25 am

One more thing, if you are going to cheat, by ignoring eligibility rules for female players, will counties be allowed to use more than one? A rich county could sign up loads of strong female players, just to stop other teams using them!

Bruce Birchall's very weak, all-female team did annoy his county, as basically, he threw the match. Essex would normally be the first to complain about alleged eligibility issues, but were probably satisfied with a crushing victory. I don't think his actions encouraged female participation.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Old Chestnut

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:49 am

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:06 am
If this idea is considered, one also has to consider the definition of "female".
:roll:

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Michael Farthing
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Re: Old Chestnut

Post by Michael Farthing » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:13 am

What does your emoticon mean here, Alex? It gives (me) the impression that you don't think this is a serious consideration.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Old Chestnut

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:56 pm

Michael Farthing wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:13 am
What does your emoticon mean here, Alex? It gives (me) the impression that you don't think this is a serious consideration.
Given that the BCF/ECF has been "defining" female perfectly well for as long as we have been entering women's teams into international events, girls into girls' events, or awarding British Championship women's prizes to women; just to take three examples off the top of my head ... no, I don't think it's a serious consideration.

When I thought of reasons people would have for being against this rule change proposal, I confess "How do we know what a female is?" wasn't one I saw coming. I think there was a reason for that.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: Old Chestnut

Post by Michael Farthing » Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:01 pm

Well the World has changed... I suspect the problem will not be long in surfacing.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Old Chestnut

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:28 pm

Michael Farthing wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:01 pm
Well the World has changed... I suspect the problem will not be long in surfacing.
The world has indeed changed, and it isn't as if the ECF hasn't had to handle cases like this already. That you haven't noticed suggests the ECF has done a reasonably good job of it.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Old Chestnut

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:01 pm

I was going to say that there will likely have been cases like this already (generally, unless the person is a prominent player, gender changes and/or reassignment won't be obvious outside the circle of those who know the person). Alex, can I ask if FIDE have had to handle this sort of thing as well and if they have experience with this (I mean in international events, not just handling data for the FIDE rating list)? There are difficult issues of personal identity and privacy in some cases, but if gender is flagged then it can become obvious what has happened even with name changes.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Old Chestnut

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:04 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:01 pm
Alex, can I ask if FIDE have had to handle this sort of thing as well and if they have experience with this
You can, but I'm sure this thread isn't the place to do so.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: Old Chestnut

Post by Michael Farthing » Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:38 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:28 pm
Michael Farthing wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:01 pm
Well the World has changed... I suspect the problem will not be long in surfacing.
The world has indeed changed, and it isn't as if the ECF hasn't had to handle cases like this already. That you haven't noticed suggests the ECF has done a reasonably good job of it.
Well that's told me! :-)

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