National Stages 2019

Discussion about all aspects of the ECF County Championships.
Roger de Coverly
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Re: National Stages 2019

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat May 11, 2019 11:38 am

J T Melsom wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 10:48 am
I've played at Rhyl in the past
The Rhyl Congress is longer established than the grading limited sections of the County Championship. Congresses including Rhyl have votes on the ECF Council.

They may have set the date for reasons other than the Counties Championship, but the Frome Congress next weekend has started as early as May 7th in years past. Last year was the 18th to the 20th, but it was 12th to 14th in 2017.

Mick Norris
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Re: National Stages 2019

Post by Mick Norris » Sat May 11, 2019 5:15 pm

Surrey have beaten Lancs in the Open 10 - 6 and will play G Man in the semi final, who beat Sussex 7 - 5

Minor: Devon beat Notts 8.5 - 7.5

U160: Devon 8 - 8 with Notts and level on board count but I think Notts go through; Essex beat Lancs 10 - 6

U120: Yorks beat Derbys 8 - 4, Essex beat Lancs on board count
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Nick Grey
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Re: National Stages 2019

Post by Nick Grey » Sat May 11, 2019 7:34 pm

I have been working today getting in to see this fantastic news. Surrey.
I'm watching a rugby final on the plus 1.
Some clashes at semi-final too - a football tournament that is going on where England are playing - will be nice to win since 66.

I think Lancs have issues. Do they claim both Manchester football clubs and where are they is Europe - four finals yes and maybe some chess players not getting back.

Lancs have chess issues. Looks like they have a great chance of NIL teams on national finals day.

Jaimie Wilson
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Re: National Stages 2019

Post by Jaimie Wilson » Sat May 11, 2019 11:56 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 8:21 pm
Mick Norris wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 7:10 pm
but Sussex can only find 10 players
That is a sad state of affairs for an Open team, and I don't expect that it is the captain's fault. I wonder how many of his players couldn't face another run up the M1 so soon after last weekend's 4NCL.
You're quite correct about the Sussex captain - he does a magnificent job! We actually had an 11th player but had already declared two defaults. I think one problem is that Sussex are currently down to one senior county team when we used to have four, so we don't have such a big pool of active county players to call upon for a match which is logistically challenging. Anyway, well done to Gr. Manchester today and good luck.

NickFaulks
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Re: National Stages 2019

Post by NickFaulks » Sun May 12, 2019 11:45 am

Middlesex appear to have reached the semi-finals, although the details are shrouded in mystery.

https://ecflms.org.uk/lms/node/37979

Yorkshire next.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: National Stages 2019

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Sun May 12, 2019 2:02 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 12:57 am
Mick Norris wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 7:10 pm
It doesn't seem a great weekend to choose to play to be honest; we're missing players at Rhyl (and maybe Harrogate for all I know) and because of the football on Sunday
You knew when you entered that you would be expected to play a Quarter Final on Saturday 11th May. Football on Sunday 12th May is a red herring.

Rhyl and Harrogate also knew the date, or should have done, when they arranged their congresses to clash.

Things are unlikely to change unless and until the ECF is prepared to protect its flagship competition by stipulating that conflicting events not specifically approved will not be eligible for grading.
The suggestion that the ECF should protect their `flagship` event by imposing heavy handed penalties on any event that dares clash might be the most ludicrous thing I've read on this forum.

A flagship event should be open to all. The county championships is a silo only a small minority of players can participate in. Some counties are directly excluded by the format which requires them to be competitive within a county union, if indeed they can join a county union at all. The suggestion that every other chess player should have to spend that weekend on the sidelines beggars belief. In any case, the choice for any player is a) five games of chess combined with a weekend away or b) a long journey for a single game and the risk all the effort will be undermined because the captain, having spent five nights burning the midnight oil to get a team together, has inadvertently overlooked rule 199:a(iii). For me it would be an easy choice.

One of the congresses mentioned isn't in England anyway. The other is in the North, an area which gave up on county chess a long time ago. It should also be noted that council voted to split the quarter final over two weekends a few years ago. They did so after several counties requested a change but it has caused the clash.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
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John Upham
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Re: National Stages 2019

Post by John Upham » Sun May 12, 2019 3:21 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 12:57 am
the ECF is prepared to protect its flagship competition
Is there widespread (or indeed, any kind of) agreement that the ECF Counties Championship is its "flagship event" ?

It may well have been prior to 4NCL.

If it was their flagship event would they not treat it as such ?

I see it is a a backwater of English Chess that may well go the same way as another previously referenced flagship event, i.e. the National Club Championship.

By the way, I'm not pleased this is the case but as Ben Finegold often repeats : "The truth hurts".
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NickFaulks
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Re: National Stages 2019

Post by NickFaulks » Sun May 12, 2019 4:31 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 2:02 pm
The other is in the North, an area which gave up on county chess a long time ago.
They seem to keep winning it.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: National Stages 2019

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sun May 12, 2019 8:32 pm

"The suggestion that the ECF should protect their `flagship` event by imposing heavy handed penalties on any event that dares clash might be the most ludicrous thing I've read on this forum."

No - not even close.

"Is there widespread (or indeed, any kind of) agreement that the ECF Counties Championship is its "flagship event" ?

It may well have been prior to 4NCL. "

BCF tried to destroy the 4NCL when it started - for some reason they failed.

Simon Brown
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Re: National Stages 2019

Post by Simon Brown » Sun May 12, 2019 8:49 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 8:32 pm

BCF tried to destroy the 4NCL when it started - for some reason they failed.
Nonsense.

Mike Truran
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Re: National Stages 2019

Post by Mike Truran » Sun May 12, 2019 8:59 pm

I have to admit I was there at the time and I don’t recall the BCF trying to “destroy” the 4NCL. But perhaps I didn’t notice. To be fair, they weren’t that supportive either.

But the story of BCF opposition to the 4NCL seems to have entered folklore. It would be interesting to get some background.

Nick Grey
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Re: National Stages 2019

Post by Nick Grey » Sun May 12, 2019 9:22 pm

This flagship event is open to all as is, say 4NCL.
Some regions do not want to play 10 rounds have a winner in the 11th as 4NCL.
That is not to put the onus on any other congresses or counties as there is player choice.
That many players choose what is best for them is up to them. or do something unrelated to chess.

But also many county players play 4NCL and tournament chess, as well as club chess. see the websites. enjoy the chats at matches.
This will be the first season that I have played more chess for county and 4NCL than my clubs.

It looks like Yorkshire will be the only north finalists with Lancs nowhere - seems quite right for 45 years.
I started secondary school then. :D

Mick Norris
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Re: National Stages 2019

Post by Mick Norris » Sun May 12, 2019 9:46 pm

Back to the results and a closer match today than the scoreline suggests
U160
Suffolk beat G Man 9 - 7
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Roger de Coverly
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Re: National Stages 2019

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun May 12, 2019 10:03 pm

Mike Truran wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 8:59 pm
It would be interesting to get some background.
Stories of the rival league were sufficiently solid that a team or two, Maidstone springs to mind, withdrew from the 4NCL in anticipation of the BCF forming its own national league. Needless to say, come October, the rest of the 4NCL carried on as normal without the missing teams, who rejoined the following season.

olimpbase has archived the 4NCL results back to the beginning.

1993-94 was the first season. The six competing teams in finishing order being
Invicta Knights Maidstone
Barbican London
Covent Garden
Slough Chess Club
North West Eagles
Bristol Chess Club

The second season 1994-95 had a full compliment of 12 teams.
Again in finishing order
1. Midland Monarchs
2. Slough Chess Club
3. Wood Green London
4. Witney Chess Club
6. British Chess Magazine
7. Barbican London
8. Invicta Knights Maidstone
9. Covent Garden
10. South Wales Dragons
11. Na Fianna
12. Bristol & District

In the third season, 1995-96, it was 14 teams, but note the absence of Invicta and Barbican, both founder members.

1. Slough Chess Club
2. Midland Monarchs
3. Wood Green London
4. British Chess Magazine
5. Witney Chess Club
6. South Wales Dragons
7. Guildford Chess Club
8. Richmond Chess Club
9. Hertford Chess Club
10. North West Eagles
11. Croydon Chess (previously Covent Garden)
12. Na Fianna
13. Bristol Chess Club
14. Newcastle Chess Club

In the fourth season 1996-97, there were 18 teams, but 12 rounds. The arbiters, probably including the late Richard Furness devised some pairing scheme that was a hybrid between a Swiss and an All play All.

Note the reappearance of Invicta and Barbican

1. Midland Monarchs
2. Invicta Knights Maidstone
3. Slough Chess Club
4. Northumbria Vikings
5. Barbican London
6. British Chess Magazine
7. Bristol Chess Club
8. North West Eagles
9. Wood Green London
10. South Wales Dragons
11. Guildford Chess Club
12. Richmond Chess Club
⇓ 13. Wessex Chess Club
⇓ 14. Croydon Chess
⇓ 15. Na Fianna
⇓ 16. Witney Chess Club
⇓ 17. Hertford Chess Club
⇓ 18. Celtic

The following season, there were enough teams for two divisions.

So it was during 1995 that the BCF threatened to set up its own league in competition.

As reported at the time by the late Richard Hadrell.

From the SCCU Archive
https://sccu-chess.com/archive/
Bulletin 1995-96 reporting on the SCCU Exec meeting September 1995.
(6) National League. The BCF is setting up its own National League, starting in January under the direction of Simon Brown, in direct competition with the 4NCL. Dates are to clash with 4NCL ones and it’s clearly meant as a hostile takeover. We’re not sure whether it already has the Management Board’s OK, but if not it seems to be a formality. It stems from deep dissatisfaction with the way the 4NCL’s run, and if your Editor tried to give details he’d be at risk of getting them wrong. Someone said, and no one dissented, that if we’re to have two rival leagues it is important that they clash with each other and not with county matches or other things. The BCF would obviously prefer it if the 4NCL just folded. Someone said the BCF seemed to be rushing things, given that the 4NCL season starts soon and the new League hasn’t been officially announced yet. Someone else said, with doubtful relevance, that it had been in the air for a year or more.

Simon Brown
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Re: National Stages 2019

Post by Simon Brown » Sun May 12, 2019 10:10 pm

Richard got it wrong as well.

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