More important than ghost rooks, is the question
WHY DO WE CALL IT CASTLING RATHER THAN ROOKING?
Rook Odds Rules.
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Stewart Reuben
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NickFaulks
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Re: Rook Odds Rules.
I had a game in Bermuda in which I gave odds of f7 pawn and move - I think this was the handicap for a 100-200 rating difference. It started 1.e4, e5?? 2.Qh5+, after which I considered resigning but instead played on and won. It certainly spoilt my opponent's evening.Stewart Reuben wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:59 pmThe one game I remember in England was odds of the Ra1 with the pawn f7 removed. I think this was the handicaThe game was
1 e4 e5 2 Wh5+ resigns.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.
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John McKenna
Re: Rook Odds Rules.
While Geoff and his game hounds search, probably in vain, for an extant example of a cad castling QR in a QR odds game (Morphy usually castled K-side in such games, if he castled, but was inclined to castle Q-side sometimes if giving odds of QN) here's almost one that I made before this question even arose -
Black's last two moves could have been done in one if castling with the :'phantom' a8-rook was allowed, but the 'prog' refuses to permit itself that privilege, and rightly so!
Geoff, you may only find ghost stories of the games you're after.- though such gruesome games did once live, or so it would appear.
Good rooking and tally ho!
Black's last two moves could have been done in one if castling with the :'phantom' a8-rook was allowed, but the 'prog' refuses to permit itself that privilege, and rightly so!
Geoff, you may only find ghost stories of the games you're after.- though such gruesome games did once live, or so it would appear.
Good rooking and tally ho!
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John McKenna
Re: Rook Odds Rules.
EUREKA!
I don't mind proving myself wrong -
(Oxford Encyclopedia of Chess Games )
W's next move, it appears, was the K's leap from e1 to c1 - in effect O-O-O.
Philidor could have been "some great player" - he who first took the liberty and castled with a "phantom rook".
Funny thing is that the great player didn't castle K-side, and why is the c7 pawn the one removed at the start when in other games with Atwood, played in the same month, it's the customary f7 pawn!?
I don't mind proving myself wrong -
(Oxford Encyclopedia of Chess Games )
W's next move, it appears, was the K's leap from e1 to c1 - in effect O-O-O.
Philidor could have been "some great player" - he who first took the liberty and castled with a "phantom rook".
Funny thing is that the great player didn't castle K-side, and why is the c7 pawn the one removed at the start when in other games with Atwood, played in the same month, it's the customary f7 pawn!?
Last edited by John McKenna on Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Geoff Chandler
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Re: Rook Odds Rules.
Hi John,
An excellent find, I have the same book but never thought of going though it.
Because of Black's 14th move 14...Rhf8 we can force a PGN out of this.
(White could not play 14 0-0 with a BQ on b6 but why did Atwood not take the Bishop 8...Kxf7.)
Philidor - Atwood, London 1795 (remove the a1 Rook and c7 pawn)
White played 14.0-0-0 Black replied 14...Rh8-f8. The moves 14.Kd1 Rh8-g8 15.Kc1 Rg8-f8 reflect this.
An excellent find, I have the same book but never thought of going though it.
Because of Black's 14th move 14...Rhf8 we can force a PGN out of this.
(White could not play 14 0-0 with a BQ on b6 but why did Atwood not take the Bishop 8...Kxf7.)
Philidor - Atwood, London 1795 (remove the a1 Rook and c7 pawn)
White played 14.0-0-0 Black replied 14...Rh8-f8. The moves 14.Kd1 Rh8-g8 15.Kc1 Rg8-f8 reflect this.
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John McKenna
Re: Rook Odds Rules.
Thanks, Geoff.
I never thought of the old double-double step trick to continue the PGN game. Neat!
And, then we can see the move 16... Qc7 that seems to prove the odd(s) absence of the c7 pawn from the off..
The final position is lost for W so Philidor 0-1 Atwood!
That pleased me - even though the great player took the liberty of castling Q-side while giving QR for c7 pawn odd odds he got his comeuppance in this instance.
I'd like to find a position in which Morphy had the questionable option of phantom castling as the best move on the board and eschewed it, I'd say on principle. But it will have to wait until I've more time to go looking for potential unprincipled rooking.
Text ya later terminator!
I never thought of the old double-double step trick to continue the PGN game. Neat!
And, then we can see the move 16... Qc7 that seems to prove the odd(s) absence of the c7 pawn from the off..
The final position is lost for W so Philidor 0-1 Atwood!
That pleased me - even though the great player took the liberty of castling Q-side while giving QR for c7 pawn odd odds he got his comeuppance in this instance.
I'd like to find a position in which Morphy had the questionable option of phantom castling as the best move on the board and eschewed it, I'd say on principle. But it will have to wait until I've more time to go looking for potential unprincipled rooking.
Text ya later terminator!
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Geoff Chandler
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Re: Rook Odds Rules.
Hi John,
Cannot recall a Morphy Odds game where he had the chance to 0-0-0.
I'm only glad you unearthed one. I still cannot figure out why Atwood
refused the Bishop sac on f2 but not going to lose any sleep over it.
Cannot recall a Morphy Odds game where he had the chance to 0-0-0.
I'm only glad you unearthed one. I still cannot figure out why Atwood
refused the Bishop sac on f2 but not going to lose any sleep over it.
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John McKenna
Re: Rook Odds Rules.
Agreed, Geoff, no need to burn the midnight... looking for Morphy rooking that-a-way.
I've woken up to the fact that in the Philidor-Atwood game, above, the first indication that the c7-pawn was removed is, of course, 7... Qb6!?
That move prevents 8.O-O, but Philidor could've gone 5.O-O (as did Gunsberg in 1889 and Capa in 1918 among others). After move 5 castling K-side seems less attractive.
Back to the game after 7... Qb6,
8.Bxf7?!?! looks like a shock tactic and Atwood should've played 8... Kxf7, since Philidor had no good follow up.
George Atwood (1746-1807) most likely sat in awe of Philidor's chess prowess. He was a prime mover in getting Philidor over and rigorously recorded the great man's games in a time when few wanted the task. (He may have missed 8... Kxf7, above, due to having to write the moves down in an old-style notebook balanced precariously on a knobbly knee - an indignity which persists to this day in some quarters, I'm sorry to say.)
Atwood was no slouch in the brains dept. though - a distinguished mathematician, given the post of Patent Searcher of the Customs by Pitt, the younger, and inventor of the 'Atwood apparatus', which seems to be capable of showing "certain characteristics" of gravity. (If you see a portable one knocking about on E-bay please let me know as it could augment my pocket astrolabe no end and allow me to know what's goin' down in addition to what's up.)
Analyse, again, later agitator...
I've woken up to the fact that in the Philidor-Atwood game, above, the first indication that the c7-pawn was removed is, of course, 7... Qb6!?
That move prevents 8.O-O, but Philidor could've gone 5.O-O (as did Gunsberg in 1889 and Capa in 1918 among others). After move 5 castling K-side seems less attractive.
Back to the game after 7... Qb6,
8.Bxf7?!?! looks like a shock tactic and Atwood should've played 8... Kxf7, since Philidor had no good follow up.
George Atwood (1746-1807) most likely sat in awe of Philidor's chess prowess. He was a prime mover in getting Philidor over and rigorously recorded the great man's games in a time when few wanted the task. (He may have missed 8... Kxf7, above, due to having to write the moves down in an old-style notebook balanced precariously on a knobbly knee - an indignity which persists to this day in some quarters, I'm sorry to say.)
Atwood was no slouch in the brains dept. though - a distinguished mathematician, given the post of Patent Searcher of the Customs by Pitt, the younger, and inventor of the 'Atwood apparatus', which seems to be capable of showing "certain characteristics" of gravity. (If you see a portable one knocking about on E-bay please let me know as it could augment my pocket astrolabe no end and allow me to know what's goin' down in addition to what's up.)
Analyse, again, later agitator...
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Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Rook Odds Rules.
"'Atwood apparatus'"
It bothers me that all those times I used a funicular railway, I never knew a chessplayer had been so influential in its creation.
It bothers me that all those times I used a funicular railway, I never knew a chessplayer had been so influential in its creation.
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John McKenna
Re: Rook Odds Rules.
Kevin, they simply didn't which one to put the blue plaque on.
His family have two memorials in St. Margaret's, Westminster -
https://www.westminster-abbey.org/abbey ... ood-family
This is what his apparatus looks like -
https://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.u ... chine.html
His family have two memorials in St. Margaret's, Westminster -
https://www.westminster-abbey.org/abbey ... ood-family
This is what his apparatus looks like -
https://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.u ... chine.html