Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Keith Arkell
Posts: 765
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:10 am

Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Keith Arkell » Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:25 pm

NickFaulks wrote: โ†‘
Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:33 am
Keith Arkell wrote: โ†‘
Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:16 am
Spot the logical fallacy: the claim that a 'conspiracy' is unlikely because 'only Keith cares', when were there ๐—ฎ๐—ฐ๐˜๐˜‚๐—ฎ๐—น๐—น๐˜† a conspiracy then the very thought that 'Keith cared' would give the conspirators their satisfaction.
My mistake. I was assuming that any such conspiracy would be directed towards giving the title to a favoured candidate, not part of an ongoing campaign by the rest of the world against you.
You're correct that it's your mistake, but your mistake is in thinking that a 'conspiracy' requires the complicity of 'the rest of the world', whereas in reality it need only require two people. Your other mistake is to believe that it need require an 'ongoing campaign' whereas a one-off action would suffice.

Anyway, to re-iterate, of course there isn't a 'conspiracy'. For that to be the case would at the very least require another with the same attitude towards me as the 2018 Paignton chief organiser.

So no 'conspiracy' , but that doesn't change the fact that it is reasonable to hope for an explanation for why 4 points were lopped off the Federation's version of my 'final' score. A May Leader-board showing me being 1 point behind instead of 3 points ahead might tempt me to nip off to a Rapidplay somewhere.
Michael Farthing wrote: โ†‘
Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:20 am
The post of Controller of the Grand Prix is listed on the ECF website as vacant so anyone who cares greatly could offer to sort the situation out by volunteering for the post. Better than non-volunteers complaining that volunteers are not working hard enough.
I'm not sure whether this is aimed at me, but if so I should point out that I neither requested nor was asked whether I would like to have my name included in the ECF Grand Prix. However, as they chose to include my name then I think it reasonable that I request errors of at least 4 months standing be addressed.

Anyway, to avoid being involved in any further nonsense of this nature, I've made a request to the Director of Home Chess to leave my name off any Leaderboards this season.
Last edited by Keith Arkell on Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

NickFaulks
Posts: 5874
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:00 pm

Keith Arkell wrote: โ†‘
Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:25 pm
For that to be the case would at the very least require another with the same attitude towards me as the 2018 Paignton chief organiser.
Ah, this sounds like the real story, but I'm not going to ask.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face โ€” forever.

Keith Arkell
Posts: 765
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:10 am

Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Keith Arkell » Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:30 pm

NickFaulks wrote: โ†‘
Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:00 pm
Keith Arkell wrote: โ†‘
Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:25 pm
For that to be the case would at the very least require another with the same attitude towards me as the 2018 Paignton chief organiser.
Ah, this sounds like the real story, but I'm not going to ask.
Surely we will only know the 'real story', as you put it, when we receive the explanation for why I have been docked 4 points, leading to my being overtaken by a point.

I doubt any kind of 'conspiracy', but if the May leaderboard was wrong, then misleading me in such a highly relevant manner is an error of greater magnitude than, for example, an organiser being late reporting a result, or a tournament result being lost amongst League results. Certainly the May Leaderboard can have nothing to do with Paignton. If that were included then I would have 681 points.

Here is as screenshot of that May Leaderboard, and remember that the so-called final scores are now given by the ECF as 1. Y.H. 664, 2. K.A 663!
Screenshot (1211).png
Screenshot (1211).png (593.16 KiB) Viewed 1975 times

User avatar
JustinHorton
Posts: 7778
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:06 am
Location: Somewhere you're not

Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by JustinHorton » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:48 am

I don't really know how the Grand Prix works, so I may be talking through my hat here, but my long experience in clerical work tells me that when you get errors like this you never really sort them out until you go back and work through the whole thing from the start, or at least from the point, if any, where everybody agrees everything was all right up to then. Which may be something of a daunting prospect,
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

NickFaulks
Posts: 5874
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:06 am

JustinHorton wrote: โ†‘
Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:48 am
I don't really know how the Grand Prix works, so I may be talking through my hat here, but my long experience in clerical work tells me that when you get errors like this you never really sort them out until you go back and work through the whole thing from the start, or at least from the point, if any, where everybody agrees everything was all right up to then. Which may be something of a daunting prospect.
A point I made some pages ago. Keith might not be the only player who could dredge up a few extra points given the time and the inclination.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face โ€” forever.

Mick Norris
Posts: 8190
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester

Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Mick Norris » Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:10 am

NickFaulks wrote: โ†‘
Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:06 am
JustinHorton wrote: โ†‘
Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:48 am
I don't really know how the Grand Prix works, so I may be talking through my hat here, but my long experience in clerical work tells me that when you get errors like this you never really sort them out until you go back and work through the whole thing from the start, or at least from the point, if any, where everybody agrees everything was all right up to then. Which may be something of a daunting prospect.
A point I made some pages ago. Keith might not be the only player who could dredge up a few extra points given the time and the inclination.
There's a big difference between finding a few points that were missed, and having points taken away from you

I'm hoping that the ECF are going to answer Keith's queries, preferably in a positive way
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Kevin Thurlow
Posts: 3779
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:28 pm

Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:08 pm

"I'm hoping that the ECF are going to answer Keith's queries, preferably in a positive way"

I tend to the view if people don't answer, it is because they cannot...

Keith Arkell
Posts: 765
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:10 am

Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Keith Arkell » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:12 pm

NickFaulks wrote: โ†‘
Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:06 am
JustinHorton wrote: โ†‘
Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:48 am
I don't really know how the Grand Prix works, so I may be talking through my hat here, but my long experience in clerical work tells me that when you get errors like this you never really sort them out until you go back and work through the whole thing from the start, or at least from the point, if any, where everybody agrees everything was all right up to then. Which may be something of a daunting prospect.
A point I made some pages ago. Keith might not be the only player who could dredge up a few extra points given the time and the inclination.
Nick, your inane swipes are getting rather tiresome. I think you need to go away from this conversation now, as you clearly have nothing of value to add. That I have the 'time and inclination' to pursue this is far more natural than that you do. As you very well know, I have not 'dredged up' any extra points. Instead, I have had points removed - both as described above and also by their disqualification of my victory at 2018 Paignton Premier.

Hi Justin. You are absolutely right, but I have a very specific purpose for highlighting the fact that the ECF misled me into believing that I was leading with a few weeks to go:

They are clearly on the verge of disqualifying my victory at Paignton, either because it was sent to the 'League' section of their records rather than the ' Tournament' section, or because it was reported more than a month late, or because it was sitting unopened in the inbox of some official. Anyway, whatever reason they give won't change that their argument will be that if the results appear more than a month late then it misleads my rivals over my apparent score. Hence my reason for highlighting their far greater error of posting a leaderboard with a month to go which lists me as leading, only to reveal, when it was too late for me to play any more tournaments, that I wasn't really leading, because they removed 4 points from my score.

Either their strangely intelligent computer deducted those 4 points, or an actual person did it and is keeping quiet about it.

So I say this to the ECF. Please think twice before you decide to disqualify my victory at Paignton, as your balls up with the May Leaderboard is of a far greater magnitude than the balls up of the Paignton organiser in sending the result in late, or to 'Leagues' or whatever he did.
Mick Norris wrote: โ†‘
Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:10 am

I'm hoping that the ECF are going to answer Keith's queries, preferably in a positive way


Thanks Mick :) It will be a good test to see whether the phrase 'natural justice' means anything to them.
Last edited by Keith Arkell on Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.

John Upham
Posts: 4689
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:29 am
Location: Cove, Hampshire, England.
Contact:

Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by John Upham » Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:51 pm

Methinks it is time to invoke the famous "Ask the Director" feature of the ECF web site.

Will the DoHC (Adrian Elwin) make his thoughts known on this matter ?

J.
British Chess News : britishchessnews.com
Twitter: @BritishChess
Facebook: facebook.com/groups/britishchess :D

Kevin Thurlow
Posts: 3779
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:28 pm

Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:04 pm

"Methinks it is time to invoke the famous "Ask the Director" feature of the ECF web site."

I got the impression that Keith contacted ECF in the first place and when he didn't get a reply, he mentioned it here? This seems an entirely reasonable thing to do.

Keith Arkell
Posts: 765
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:10 am

Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Keith Arkell » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:31 pm

Hi Kevin, and good to see you at the Bristol blitz.

Sometimes there can be a bit of a wait when you email, sometimes not. On here you always get an instant reply. And you get to see diverse opinions!

And posting on here seems to help immensely, sometimes. For example it helped us get a quick result when we needed it in defeating the bureaucratic 'kerfuffle' trying to prevent us having more than one qualifying date for the British Blitz Ch, and after an interminable wait it resulted ( perhaps by chance!) in a next day resolution of the issue of GM fees for the British Ch.

As the ECF Grand Prix job is listed as vacant I thought I'd again start on here. I have since then been in direct contact with Adrian, but by that time the thread was in full swing. Adrian and I have exchanged emails in the last hour, and I trust that the exceptional circumstances of the misleading May Leaderboard will neutralise any issues over Paignton, but first he will investigate...

Hok Yin Stephen Chiu
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:52 pm

Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Hok Yin Stephen Chiu » Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:55 am

I wonder why the ECF does not appear to have responded to this? (I hope it does so soon! I would otherwise raise the question at the upcoming ECF council, however, it is possible that I may not have returned from abroad by then)
Keith Arkell wrote: โ†‘
Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:25 pm
Anyway, to avoid being involved in any further nonsense of this nature, I've made a request to the Director of Home Chess to leave my name off any Leaderboards this season.
Under GDPR, the right to restrict processing, and the right of rectification applies - the ECF would have a month to deal with the removal (if the order on the list isn't resolved in due course, presumably?)
Delegate for Coventry & District, and Leamington & District
Vice Chair @ Coventry and District Chess League | former-President @ Warwick University Chess
Celebrating 100 Years of the Coventry & District Chess League 1919-2019

Keith Arkell
Posts: 765
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:10 am

Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Keith Arkell » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:13 pm

It puzzles me why they even need to investigate ๐’˜๐’‰๐’š they published a Leaderboard in May which falsely led me to believe I was leading. For the time being it is enough that it happened.

Or is it too far fetched to imagine that they are considering wiping out my Paignton victory because it was reported to the ECF in December rather than September (which I now know to be the case) , but yet doing nothing about their gross deception of falsely leading me to believe I was leading at the end of may? Were that unlikely scenario to be the case then it would not be unreasonable to suspect 'conspiracy'. However, that would be entering cloud cuckoo land.

Andrew Zigmond
Posts: 1811
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Harrogate

Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:41 am

Hok Yin Stephen Chiu wrote: โ†‘
Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:55 am
I wonder why the ECF does not appear to have responded to this? (I hope it does so soon! I would otherwise raise the question at the upcoming ECF council, however, it is possible that I may not have returned from abroad by then)
Keith Arkell wrote: โ†‘
Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:25 pm
Anyway, to avoid being involved in any further nonsense of this nature, I've made a request to the Director of Home Chess to leave my name off any Leaderboards this season.
Under GDPR, the right to restrict processing, and the right of rectification applies - the ECF would have a month to deal with the removal (if the order on the list isn't resolved in due course, presumably?)
The ECF do appear to have responded, or at least Keith has noted that he is in contact with Adrian Elwin who (like every other member of the board) is under no obligation to participate in an unofficial forum. A statement may be needed in due course but isn't necessary while the matter is still being investigated.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

Keith Arkell
Posts: 765
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:10 am

Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Keith Arkell » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:08 pm

I returned from the Isle of Man to find this nice shiny trophy awaiting me.

Thank you ECF!
WIN_20191023_22_00_11_Pro.jpg
WIN_20191023_22_00_11_Pro.jpg (137.78 KiB) Viewed 709 times

Post Reply