End of an era

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Roger Lancaster
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Re: End of an era

Post by Roger Lancaster » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:30 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:42 pm
I think theft is more serious than laziness and incompetence, but given that in this instance the former grew out of the latter, I guess it's not so important where you place each of them on the podium.
Let's try this question. If someone authors a chess publication of one form or another, whether in hard print or internet-based, and reproduces without attribution the words of another, I think we agree that's plagiarism - it's improbable that two minds independently came up with exactly the same sequence of words. If instead that author reproduces without attribution the analysis of another then, morally, that's also plagiarism - but it's very difficult to prove because two minds might well independently have reached exactly the same conclusions. The first is [rightly] criticised while the latter tends to escape notice but which would you consider the more reprehensible?

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: End of an era

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:12 pm

No chess author is error free, but some have managed the job better than others (and certainly better than the subject of this thread)
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Chris Goodall
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Re: End of an era

Post by Chris Goodall » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:52 pm

Whenever I feel like flouncing out of a meeting accusing everyone present jointly and severally of corruption, freeloading and mismanagement, I think of Ray Keene and remember that nothing matters, and if it does matter, no-one cares about it anyway, and if anyone does care about it, chess players' way of showing me they care about it will be to point-blank refuse to interact with me in any way, which is fine.
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Alex Holowczak
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Re: End of an era

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:17 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:22 pm
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:43 pm
whether the game was played in Amsterdam or Rotterdam, about which the typical reader is probably uninterested?
Sporting history surely. It's like writing that the 1981 test match where Willis took 8 wickets was played in Birmingham against the West Indies. It was the late ErIc Schiller who was often responsible for similar chess howlers.
Actually, I think that plays into my point. If I buy a chess book about the Sicilian Defence, then I'm using it to learn the Sicilian Defence and the sporting history isn't relevant. It could be from any game and it wouldn't detract from the learning. If I buy a book about the 1981 Ashes Series, I'm buying it to learn about the sporting history, and probably not to learn Bob Willis's bowling action or Mike Gatting's technique for making a relatively trivial catch look good for the cameras.

NickFaulks
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Re: End of an era

Post by NickFaulks » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:38 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:17 pm
or Mike Gatting's technique for making a relatively trivial catch look good for the cameras.
How dare you!? I was watching it live, which I'm pretty sure you weren't, and it was a brilliant catch.

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JustinHorton
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Re: End of an era

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:28 am

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:30 pm
If instead that author reproduces without attribution the analysis of another then, morally, that's also plagiarism - but it's very difficult to prove because two minds might well independently have reached exactly the same conclusions
I am not sure what this has to do with the present case
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Paul Habershon
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Re: End of an era

Post by Paul Habershon » Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:46 am

Beginning of an era? The Spectator"s new chess columnist is Luke McShane who writes that it is an honour to be the third such after C H O'D Alexander (pen name Philidor) and Raymond Keene.

Very glad that the column has not been dropped, as I feared might happen.

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JustinHorton
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Re: End of an era

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:10 am

Win-win
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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E Michael White
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Re: End of an era

Post by E Michael White » Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:12 am

Paul Habershon wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:46 am
Spectator"s new chess columnist is Luke McShane who writes that it is an honour to be the third such after C H O'D Alexander (pen name Philidor) and Raymond Keene.
I haven't seen what was written but Heinrich Fraenkel (who wrote as Assiac) was the columnist before CHOD A.

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JustinHorton
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Re: End of an era

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:24 am

New Statesman
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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E Michael White
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Re: End of an era

Post by E Michael White » Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:52 am

You're quite right. Chess columnists seem to live to advances ages so we can hopefully look to many future Luke contributions.

John Upham
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Re: End of an era

Post by John Upham » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:42 am

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:55 pm
Frankly, I'm not too sure that the wider world cares too much about plagiarism.
I can say for sure that the academic community most certainly does.

Maybe persons who care little about much in general are not worried about plagiarism assuming they knew what the word meant.
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John Upham
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Re: End of an era

Post by John Upham » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:53 am

Joseph Conlon wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:05 pm
From Ray Keene's chess column in today's Spectator:

"After 42 years without missing a week, this is my last column for The Spectator."

The final game of the column is Keene-Kovacevic (1973).
Presumably Brighton based Byron Jacobs will have less work to do now ?
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Roger Lancaster
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Re: End of an era

Post by Roger Lancaster » Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:08 am

John Upham wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:42 am
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:55 pm
Frankly, I'm not too sure that the wider world cares too much about plagiarism.
I can say for sure that the academic community most certainly does.
Maybe persons who care little about much in general are not worried about plagiarism assuming they knew what the word meant.
Agreed, most academics can be bracketed with literati and similar in their regard for plagiarism. But, as to the wider world, it's the exact reverse of John's assumption. Those who know what plagiarism means aren't generally too concerned - the ones who are concerned fear a return to 1665.

John Upham
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Re: End of an era

Post by John Upham » Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:32 am

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:08 am
John Upham wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:42 am
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:55 pm
Frankly, I'm not too sure that the wider world cares too much about plagiarism.
I can say for sure that the academic community most certainly does.
Maybe persons who care little about much in general are not worried about plagiarism assuming they knew what the word meant.
Agreed, most academics can be bracketed with literati and similar in their regard for plagiarism. But, as to the wider world, it's the exact reverse of John's assumption. Those who know what plagiarism means aren't generally too concerned - the ones who are concerned fear a return to 1665.

Thomas Farriner saw an end to that : he chose a fiery demise to many plagiarists but Robert Hubert got the blame, he was hanged and then torn apart by enraged members of the EC Forum.
Last edited by John Upham on Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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