Arbitration question

[Roger de Coverly]

Are they? Has FIDE made any statement on this?

Like the ECF, any Federation can set up its own national system and extend it to online play, usually as a standalone list. Established servers invariably have their own private systems as well.

Even FIDE has its own private online rating system (Arena, hence AGM titles etc.)

[Stewart Reuben]

I think there has been a misunderstanding here.

Soheil you cannot have games played ONLINE within your federation which can be FIDE Rated. You can, of course, set up your own independent rating system. It is essential to make it clear to the players and organisers that the system is independent of FIDE.
England has such a system which predates the FIDE System that started in 1970; as do the US and Germany and others.

There is a FIDE online system and, if the players sign in for that and adhere to the rules, their games get FIDE online rated.

[soheil_hooshdaran]

Thanks.

So how can we join FIDE arena?

[soheil_hooshdaran]

6R1/1R2P2k/6pr/8/8/5p1r/B4b1P/7K w - - 0 1

White plays e8 and his flag falls. What's the verdict?

[Roger de Coverly]

White plays e8 and his flag falls. What's the verdict?

If White has time to physically promote to a rook or queen, it's mate and the precedent of an English junior game of sixty years ago applies, namely that mate ends the game. If not, there's scope for a debate about when a move is completed. The Laws do however allow the clocks to be stopped to summon an arbiter to locate a spare piece. So play e8, announce Queen and then stop the clock. Does that deliver mate? Let the arbiters argue!

[Alex McFarlane]

I will not start this post by saying "With all due respect to Roger"!!

However, the pawn can be promoted to any piece and it is mate provided the promotion is made before the fallen flag is noticed. The Rook on g8 is protected by the bishop on a2 so promotion to Q or R is not the only way of getting mate.

If the pawn on e7 has been touched then the only legal move is e8 = X mate. Although this move is not complete (or even made) it does mean that Black cannot get checkmate by any means and so the game would be a draw.

Remove the Bishop from a2 and you have a more complicated situation. Even moving the pawn to e8 is no longer sufficient to get the draw as it could be promoted to a N or B. However, if White has not made a previous illegal move, e8 and pressing the clock before flag fall is a draw at least. Under the Laws the pawn must be promoted to a queen and so Black cannot get checkmate. It is then a question of can White queen the pawn before flag fall and get mate. If it is a second illegal move then it would be a draw.

Similarly (with B removed), if White pressed the clock before it was noticed that the flag had fallen, even though it is obvious that the flag must have fallen before the clock press because the flag is only considered to have fallen when it is noticed, the game would be drawn.

The flag can be used to determine which clock ran out of time first when a win on time is being claimed.

Simple really!!!

[Stewart Reuben]

With all due respect to Alex and Roger.
Soheil wrote >White plays e8 and his flag falls. What's the verdict?<

White wins because it is mate, whether he would have promoted to a queen, rook, bishop or knight.

[Richard Bates]

... or a pawn

[David Sedgwick]

White wins because it is mate, whether he would have promoted to a queen, rook, bishop or knight.

I am with Alex on this one.

Law 5.1.1 states that "The game is won by the player who has checkmated his opponent's king". In the situation described by Soheil, White has taken an action which will lead to his checkmating his opponent's king, but he has not yet done so.

[Stewart Reuben]

Richard. That is a new one for me: promoting a pawn to a pawn.

Remember the question came from Soheil for whom English is not his first language. Let us imagine a real life situation. White plays Pe8. He takes no further action. He does not have to. He has mated is opponent, although he did not complete his move - why should he?

[Reg Clucas]

White wins because it is mate, whether he would have promoted to a queen, rook, bishop or knight.

I am with Alex on this one.

Law 5.1.1 states that "The game is won by the player who has checkmated his opponent's king". In the situation described by Soheil, White has taken an action which will lead to his checkmating his opponent's king, but he has not yet done so.

That would be my take on it too, as Law 5.1.1 also says "...provided that the move producing the checkmate position was in accordance with Article 3 and Articles 4.2 – 4.7." - which is not the case if the pawn has not been replaced by a piece.

[E Michael White]

Richard. That is a new one for me: promoting a pawn to a pawn.

Stranger things can happen in Chess, especially Blitz and Rapid. I played a local Blitz recently when my opponent promoted one of my (W) pawns from g2 to a Black Q of his on h1. The arbiter insisted he couldn't have intended it so wanted us to play on. I suggested the arbiter might like to read the latest version of the FIDE laws someday. However I am an optimist and am confident he will read said laws any year now.

[Richard Bates]

Richard. That is a new one for me: promoting a pawn to a pawn

It’s a reference to Hastings 1995 - intel qualifier Stewart! Surprised you don’t recall (or is it an urban myth?). White promoted a pawn and lacking a queen at hand simply said “Queen”. Subsequently moving the “Queen” back to the second rank. On complaint by the opponent you were called in and ruled that (with nothing else to guide you other than the position on the board) the “Queen” on c2 was, in fact ... a pawn.

The story continues that then white marched it up the board and promoted it again!

[E Michael White]

White should have moved the Pawn (Queen) back to the 1st rank where even Stewart might have regarded it as a Queen. If the game reached an ending, I suggest a Queen thus restricted might be valued as +6.5 on the usual scale of piece values.

[Joseph Conlon]

Returning to something alluded to above: suppose the e7 pawn has been touched with deliberate intent to move it, and then flag fall is noticed before it is moved. What is the result?

To me, this would appear to be a win for black, as touching the pawn does not change the position, even though White is compelled to promote the pawn resulting in checkmate, as moves other than promoting the pawn are still legal moves even if they violate the touch move rule.

"However, the game is drawn if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves."

What is the take on this?