Club Membership & ECF Membership Fees

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Roger de Coverly
Posts: 18988
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Club Membership & ECF Membership Fees

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:17 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:06 pm
The real point about these new rules is that they are basically unenforceable, and any serious attempt to do so is likely to cause unrest.
Isn't the idea that the police would find it easier to count to six rather than thirty? Apparently thirty was what the previous law said, as distinct from "guidance". So perhaps it becomes easy to spot four occupied chess boards or two Bridge or Cribbage tables. I don't see how it would be possible to enforce a restriction on seven people who "happened" to be in a pub at the same time, particularly since regulars may probably know at least six other regulars.

There's still the question for the Northumberland organisers as if the previous law said thirty, how they were able to plan for 120 attendees and whether cutting 30 to 6 changes anything?

User avatar
Matt Mackenzie
Posts: 3369
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:51 pm
Location: Millom, Cumbria

Re: Club Membership & ECF Membership Fees

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:21 pm

Oh, and lets not forget that we were told just yesterday that in effect "breaking the law is OK".

Who knows, chess clubs (and others) might decide to test this new legislation "in a very specific and limited way" :)
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

NickFaulks
Posts: 5883
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: Club Membership & ECF Membership Fees

Post by NickFaulks » Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:53 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:17 pm
Isn't the idea that the police would find it easier to count to six rather than thirty?
Then it would surely be five, which you can do on one hand.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

Matt Bridgeman
Posts: 471
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:21 pm

Re: Club Membership & ECF Membership Fees

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:58 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:17 pm
Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:06 pm
The real point about these new rules is that they are basically unenforceable, and any serious attempt to do so is likely to cause unrest.
Isn't the idea that the police would find it easier to count to six rather than thirty? Apparently thirty was what the previous law said, as distinct from "guidance". So perhaps it becomes easy to spot four occupied chess boards or two Bridge or Cribbage tables. I don't see how it would be possible to enforce a restriction on seven people who "happened" to be in a pub at the same time, particularly since regulars may probably know at least six other regulars.

There's still the question for the Northumberland organisers as if the previous law said thirty, how they were able to plan for 120 attendees and whether cutting 30 to 6 changes anything?
The think the manager of The Parks Sports Centre and the County Council are today pondering this question, and perhaps the conclusions they come to will either be quite good or quite bad for the short term future of English chess congresses. I guess it will be a question of watching this space! :)

Mick Norris
Posts: 8196
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester

Re: Club Membership & ECF Membership Fees

Post by Mick Norris » Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:16 pm

Eric Gardiner wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:40 am
The Chessbase site has photos of players in the Spanish Championships wearing masks but with bottles of water next to their boards. Presumably the players are allowed to remove masks to drink water? If so, I wonder how often they are allowed to do this. I'm not very keen on having to frequently remove a mask, sip water and replace the mask if I'm short of time in a serious standardplay game. However I think I could manage to survive without water during a rapidplay game.
This Spanish championships? statement in Spanish

Tweets from Patricia Llaneza show the development of the story

31 August
4 COVID-19 cases reported after Flag of Spain Team Ch (2nd Division). All started feeling symptoms back home.
7 "close contacts" have been tested & are self-isolated in Linares waiting for results.
Individual National #Chess Championship has started today as planned, minus these 7 players.
1 Sept
Infection likely took place before the tournament and spread among team-mates, they played during "pre-symptomatic" period and developed symptoms once back home. #Chess is a low-risk activity, but at the end of the day, social gatherings are an essential part of tournaments.
2 Sept
Official statement from Flag of Spain #Chess Fed (FEDA) https://feda.org/feda2k16/wp-content/up ... 9_2020.pdf
Confirms data previously reported:
7 close contacts of COVID-19 positives (didn't start playing) self-isolated & tested
2 positives, 5 negatives
12 new close contacts placed in self-isolation & tested asap
None of these players has symptoms & outbreak is contained. Protocol has been followed at all times, in coordination with health authorities.
Tournament goes on with strict sanitary measures. FEDA asks people to keep calm, regrets this incident and expresses best wishes
and
Round 3 of Flag of Spain Individual Championship:
8 players haven't shown up. Some of them publicly announced leaving due to health concerns. GMs López Martínez & Arizmendi Martínez have left the tournament. 17 self-isolated players (among them fans' favorite @pepeich_cuenca ), no symptoms.
5 Sept
2nd official statement from Flag of Spain #Chess Fed (FEDA): https://feda.org/feda2k16/wp-content/up ... 9_2020.pdf
2 players (finally 3) tested positive and didn't start the IndCh
1 positive after tracing & testing contacts of pre-tournament positives. 4 quarantined didn't start the IndCh, tested negative, no symptoms
11 quarantined, tested negative, no symptoms, detected after initial tracing. 4 quarantined, no symptoms, pending test, detected after tracing contacts of newest positive
If new positives are detected, FEDA & health authorities will reassess situation
FEDA assures IndCh continues
6 Sept
Flag of Spain Team Ch (1st Division), scheduled for 11-19 Sept in Padrón (Galicia), has been postponed to 3-9 Oct due to a COVID-19 outbreak in Santiago de Compostela & subsequent measures by local government
Travel restrictions & uncertainty have led FEDA to allow last-minute ESP recruits.
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Eric Gardiner
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:42 am
Location: Hull

Re: Club Membership & ECF Membership Fees

Post by Eric Gardiner » Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:37 pm

Yes Mick I think so. Do you know the answer to my question?

My question was more of a practical one rather than a direct contribution to the discussion of the current health risks of playing OTB chess. I did quickly put one of the links into Google Translate but didn't spot anything about whether you had to go somewhere to drink water, as Ian Thompson says upthread he had to do. When deciding on whether to play OTB chess in the future, if it is permitted, I'd take information on current infection rates into account as well as requirements for mask wearing, water drinking and so on.

Ian Thompson
Posts: 2540
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:31 pm
Location: Awbridge, Hampshire

Re: Club Membership & ECF Membership Fees

Post by Ian Thompson » Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:40 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:17 pm
There's still the question for the Northumberland organisers as if the previous law said thirty, how they were able to plan for 120 attendees and whether cutting 30 to 6 changes anything?
I think the answer to that is that the law said that the 30 persons limit did not apply to events where the organiser had carried out a risk assessment and taken all all reasonable measures to prevent the transmission of coronavirus, if the organiser was "a business, a charitable, benevolent or philanthropic institution, a public body, or a political body."

However, it's not obvious to me how a chess tournament would satisfy the additional requirement of being "reasonably necessary".

Mick Norris
Posts: 8196
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester

Re: Club Membership & ECF Membership Fees

Post by Mick Norris » Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:21 pm

Eric Gardiner wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:37 pm
Yes Mick I think so. Do you know the answer to my question?

My question was more of a practical one rather than a direct contribution to the discussion of the current health risks of playing OTB chess. I did quickly put one of the links into Google Translate but didn't spot anything about whether you had to go somewhere to drink water, as Ian Thompson says upthread he had to do. When deciding on whether to play OTB chess in the future, if it is permitted, I'd take information on current infection rates into account as well as requirements for mask wearing, water drinking and so on.
No; looking at the picture, it looks like each player has been provided with a bottle of water (as well as a hand sanitiser I think); it would make sense that each player has their own water bottle provided, rather than having any shared facilities; if that's the case, then you would hope that instructions have been issued to the players e.g. if you want a drink, take your own bottle as provided, but go outside?

My point in posting the details above was to show how the situation can develop rapidly during a tournament; so, if you enter one, you can't be certain that the precautions at the start won't have to be tightened up during the event; the further you travel the more chance you are taking

For example I got in the car the other morning with the knowledge that Bolton was out of lockdown; by the time I got back into the car, Bolton was back in lockdown, and Hancock was retrospectively saying that our emergence from lockdown wasn't due at 00:01 as we had understood, but was at 12:00 instead; this might have meant that, as I'd stupidly forgotten to use a TARDIS rather than a car :roll: , I had broken the regulations/guidance/law (I hadn't, but you get my drift)

Anyone organising an OTB chess event in the UK is taking a chance that the rules will change, as is anyone entering, unfortunately
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Eric Gardiner
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:42 am
Location: Hull

Re: Club Membership & ECF Membership Fees

Post by Eric Gardiner » Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:29 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:21 pm

My point in posting the details above was to show how the situation can develop rapidly during a tournament; so, if you enter one, you can't be certain that the precautions at the start won't have to be tightened up during the event; the further you travel the more chance you are taking
Thanks for your reply - yes agreed. At the moment, I wouldn't travel to an event that would require an overnight stay but would consider a local rapidplay as case numbers aren't too bad in my area. As you suggest, I might be less willing in 24 or 48 hours time!

Mick Norris
Posts: 8196
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester

Re: Club Membership & ECF Membership Fees

Post by Mick Norris » Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:55 pm

The number in Bolton a week or so ago, per 100,000, was about 19; today it is 131 and a guy has been fined £1,000 for not quarantining on return from Ibiza, going out, and having a house party :roll: , so yes, it can escalate quite quickly if you have enough stupid selfish people; hope you don't Eric, and take care whatever you do decide to do
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Nick Grey
Posts: 1549
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:16 am

Re: Club Membership & ECF Membership Fees

Post by Nick Grey » Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:51 pm

Like 2 young England footballers in Iceland. stupid selfish people age 20-30 plus causing the problem. Inner London was around 20s so we may go into lockdown if go up. My need at chess is to pee so that cannot happen.

Andrew Zigmond
Posts: 1814
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Harrogate

Re: Club Membership & ECF Membership Fees

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:34 am

Having seen the new regulations it would appear there is no bar to six chess players taking over a table in a pub for a night and playing amongst themselves (you could even make an impromptu blitz tournament out of it). So I personally think chess clubs could stay open provided players are sorted into a bubble at the start of the night and stay there - that's what pubs are effectively doing anyway. If all players wear masks as well they're spreading rather less airborne particles than a group of people having lively conversation over beer.

Two wider points. Firstly Nick Grey's swipe at the younger generation is unfair. Leaving aside the impact the pandemic has had on their long term prospects (their education disrupted and the hospitality and gig industries destroyed) from what I have seen myself the flouting of regulations such as face masks in shops tends to be across the board.

Which takes me on to the second point. Some of today's papers have an absolutely visceral reaction to the new regulations; specifically the Telegraph, the Mail and the Express - the Tory supporting papers.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

Nick Grey
Posts: 1549
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:16 am

Re: Club Membership & ECF Membership Fees

Post by Nick Grey » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:59 am

Firstly Nick Grey's swipe at the younger generation is unfair. The Press swipe - may be from leaked memos.

User avatar
Paul Robert Jackson
Posts: 85
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:10 pm

Re: Club Membership & ECF Membership Fees

Post by Paul Robert Jackson » Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:11 pm

With clubs struggling to reopen, & leagues opting to run their seasons online.
Members who renew their ECF Membership along with paying their club fees, may not have renewed their memberships yet.

Anybody have any updates on the numbers who are renewing their memberships?
Paul Robert Jackson

David Williams
Posts: 219
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:37 pm

Re: Club Membership & ECF Membership Fees

Post by David Williams » Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:16 pm

Nick Ivell wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:06 pm
If I'm expected to wear a mask, I'm not playing chess.
There will also be those who say "If my opponent is not wearing a face-covering, I'm not playing chess". And they may well also say "It makes no difference if he has a medical exemption. That doesn't make him any less infectious".

Post Reply