Cheating in chess
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Re: Cheating in chess
The presenter didn't mention which tournament.
But 5 disqualified from the top 6 is quite scary.
I think though some of the discussion about the ethics of cheating was interesting.
Why do people cheat?
Might be worth possibly a new Topic in the near future.
But 5 disqualified from the top 6 is quite scary.
I think though some of the discussion about the ethics of cheating was interesting.
Why do people cheat?
Might be worth possibly a new Topic in the near future.
- Joey Stewart
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Re: Cheating in chess
To be fair, reciting theory books online is identical to running a chess computer for the first 20+ moves of the game, there's a reason we aren't allowed in the bookstalls while in play at tournaments!
It probably depends largely on the theory used and how 'human' the moves look as to whether an opponent reports you.
It probably depends largely on the theory used and how 'human' the moves look as to whether an opponent reports you.
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.
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Re: Cheating in chess
I don't think that is known. There were bans by lichess in the online 4NCL after very few games, less games than one might expect from the mathematics of coincidence. Other measures such as the time taken over moves are also claimed to be in use.John Upham wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:46 amIs there a criteria that says "Your rating is too low to know that much opening theory : you are banned"
Without proof, I believe the claim that they exclude moves from analysis that are part of theory is a con. Rather they just use an arbitrary move count cut off.
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Re: Cheating in chess
At the Scarborough Congress you have to walk past the book stall to go to the loo.
Cheating comes in various forms.
I remember a game I played many years ago in the Blackpool Chess Congress at the Winter Gardens in the final round.
My opponent battered me and I resigned with only a king and knight left. My opponent then asked me to write the result down as a win for myself. Apparently he wanted to keep his grade below a certain number.
I then had to explain in broken English to my Latvian friend how I had won this game.
I remember at the start of the conversation my Latvian friend questioned why the arbiter had wrote down a win on the results board.
I then told him I had won and my Latvian friend said "that is not possible ".
I was new to Chess Tournaments at the time and wasn't aware of the giggery pokery that can take place.
Cheating comes in various forms.
I remember a game I played many years ago in the Blackpool Chess Congress at the Winter Gardens in the final round.
My opponent battered me and I resigned with only a king and knight left. My opponent then asked me to write the result down as a win for myself. Apparently he wanted to keep his grade below a certain number.
I then had to explain in broken English to my Latvian friend how I had won this game.
I remember at the start of the conversation my Latvian friend questioned why the arbiter had wrote down a win on the results board.
I then told him I had won and my Latvian friend said "that is not possible ".
I was new to Chess Tournaments at the time and wasn't aware of the giggery pokery that can take place.
- JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess
This is an entirely ignorant comment given that reference to books is allowed in online correspondence chessJoey Stewart wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:50 amTo be fair, reciting theory books online is identical to running a chess computer for the first 20+ moves of the game,
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
- Joey Stewart
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Re: Cheating in chess
Only in iccf I believe - most web browser sites that do correspondence still try their best to discourage cheating
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.
- JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess
No, in the actual chess.com format which is being referred to.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
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Re: Cheating in chess
Once I find the Blackpool game, I will post it on the forum for you all, but for obvious reasons I won't mention my opponent's name or the date it was played. I think it was over 20 years ago now.
Since then I have heard stories, how a few players deliberately throw games in their club tournaments to keep their Chess grade low and then pick up the prize money in Chess Congresses.
Since then I have heard stories, how a few players deliberately throw games in their club tournaments to keep their Chess grade low and then pick up the prize money in Chess Congresses.
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Re: Cheating in chess
"Only in iccf I believe - most web browser sites that do correspondence still try their best to discourage cheating"
ICCF bans people for cheating (well, apart from some of their arbiters...). Using computers in ICCF events is permitted, basically as they recognise you can't stop it. You can even claim wins or draws on the appropriate 7-piece tablebase.
ICCF bans people for cheating (well, apart from some of their arbiters...). Using computers in ICCF events is permitted, basically as they recognise you can't stop it. You can even claim wins or draws on the appropriate 7-piece tablebase.
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Re: Cheating in chess
Hi John,
"I played a couple of games that were within my Caro-Kann and QGD (Tarrasch) opening
preparation that were both agreed drawn in database positions that I was familiar with."
The match up systems that I know off only started looking for 'ffyness' after mainline theory.
However, a good OTB player who specialised in an opening is bound too, in their own free time, not currently
playing in a tournament, has looked deeper with a computer at the coming middle game patterns.
The chances are their next 5-10 moves after known theory will match up because they may well
be computer moves given to the player months before the game under review was played.
They will play these moves almost instantly and risk being wrongfully banned for knowing something
they took the trouble to learn and study in advance.
I suspect the hunter seeker cheater catchers may take this into consideration when banning a top dog as well
as having to keep up with the latest theoretical wrinkles because even average players will be and the
chances are the latest wrinkle will be computer based because the top players, the theory creators, use them.
(I do not think they will admit this. It seems every time Professor Regan pops up to scare off the
robotic players yet another method of detection is revealed and those 'at it' are taking notes. )
"I played a couple of games that were within my Caro-Kann and QGD (Tarrasch) opening
preparation that were both agreed drawn in database positions that I was familiar with."
The match up systems that I know off only started looking for 'ffyness' after mainline theory.
However, a good OTB player who specialised in an opening is bound too, in their own free time, not currently
playing in a tournament, has looked deeper with a computer at the coming middle game patterns.
The chances are their next 5-10 moves after known theory will match up because they may well
be computer moves given to the player months before the game under review was played.
They will play these moves almost instantly and risk being wrongfully banned for knowing something
they took the trouble to learn and study in advance.
I suspect the hunter seeker cheater catchers may take this into consideration when banning a top dog as well
as having to keep up with the latest theoretical wrinkles because even average players will be and the
chances are the latest wrinkle will be computer based because the top players, the theory creators, use them.
(I do not think they will admit this. It seems every time Professor Regan pops up to scare off the
robotic players yet another method of detection is revealed and those 'at it' are taking notes. )
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Re: Cheating in chess
You're absolutely right Joey.Joey Stewart wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:22 am5 players banned in the same tournament? I'm guessing he must have been referring to an online tournament probably on chess.com (lichess seems to allow cheats to continually win their tournaments) .
But the parallel with the degeneration of sport is starting to show though in chess, the more times people see cheats rewarded for their dirty ways the more it encourages others that the only way for them to compete is to do the same thing until it becomes a vicious cycle .
Regards cheating in chess, and the online stuff, I'm afraid the rewards outweigh the risks and punishments.
Punishments are not harsh enough.
You see it in other sports like athletics where after testing positive for a steroid, you are only banned for a couple of years.
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Re: Cheating in chess
Isn't this match fixing?Simon Rogers wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:08 pmAt the Scarborough Congress you have to walk past the book stall to go to the loo.
Cheating comes in various forms.
I remember a game I played many years ago in the Blackpool Chess Congress at the Winter Gardens in the final round.
My opponent battered me and I resigned with only a king and knight left. My opponent then asked me to write the result down as a win for myself. Apparently he wanted to keep his grade below a certain number.
I then had to explain in broken English to my Latvian friend how I had won this game.
I remember at the start of the conversation my Latvian friend questioned why the arbiter had wrote down a win on the results board.
I then told him I had won and my Latvian friend said "that is not possible ".
I was new to Chess Tournaments at the time and wasn't aware of the giggery pokery that can take place.
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Re: Cheating in chess
Do you actually know that is true?Geoff Chandler wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:19 pmThe match up systems that I know off only started looking for 'ffyness' after mainline theory.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.
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Re: Cheating in chess
Not sure. As it happened after the match rather than before.Chris Rice wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:43 pmIsn't this match fixing?Simon Rogers wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:08 pmAt the Scarborough Congress you have to walk past the book stall to go to the loo.
Cheating comes in various forms.
I remember a game I played many years ago in the Blackpool Chess Congress at the Winter Gardens in the final round.
My opponent battered me and I resigned with only a king and knight left. My opponent then asked me to write the result down as a win for myself. Apparently he wanted to keep his grade below a certain number.
I then had to explain in broken English to my Latvian friend how I had won this game.
I remember at the start of the conversation my Latvian friend questioned why the arbiter had wrote down a win on the results board.
I then told him I had won and my Latvian friend said "that is not possible ".
I was new to Chess Tournaments at the time and wasn't aware of the giggery pokery that can take place.
He aaked me to write the result on the slip as a win for me.
It was one of my first tournaments and I was a bit naive.
A few years later I was warned by an experienced player by the sharks in the lower sections at tournaments, particularly at Blackpool and Scarborough as it was £500 for first prize.
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Re: Cheating in chess
Not really very scary at all It mostly shows that the cheats weren't worried about being subtle/intelligent about it. Which we should broadly be happy about, I would think.Simon Rogers wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:49 amThe presenter didn't mention which tournament.
But 5 disqualified from the top 6 is quite scary.
Any entirely 'crude' computer cheater will obviously tend to up in the top few in any tournament they enter!