End of an era
-
- Posts: 5251
- Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:51 pm
- Location: Millom, Cumbria
Re: End of an era
These days the "extremists" are arguably those who still claim to believe that RDK is a basically good guy who has done nothing wrong.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)
-
- Posts: 1009
- Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 11:51 am
Re: End of an era
Maybe they're 'moderates' who just happen to be extremely mistaken.Matt Mackenzie wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:46 pmThese days the "extremists" are arguably those who still claim to believe that RDK is a basically good guy who has done nothing wrong.
-
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:38 pm
- Location: The Netherlands
Re: End of an era
Yes, hoodwinked by the establishment. Or in a few privileged cases they are themselves members of the establishment who do everything in their immense power to support their cronies.Gerard Killoran wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:25 amMaybe they're 'moderates' who just happen to be extremely mistaken.Matt Mackenzie wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:46 pmThese days the "extremists" are arguably those who still claim to believe that RDK is a basically good guy who has done nothing wrong.
-
- Posts: 1026
- Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:45 pm
Re: End of an era
RDK's appearance at the Sheffield opening ceremony was due to a personal invitation from CJ de Mooi and wasJustinHorton wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:33 pm...
(Just as an aside, I mentioned Sheffield a bit earlier, and it's absolutely extraordinary to me that somebody who has had to leave an organisation because he fiddled it out of money gets to come back and address its annual event. I can't think of anything like it. But of course this was just one bizarre matter among dozens.)
a complete shock to both the championship organisers and other members of the ECF board. This event was
quickly overshadowed by the CJ T-shirt row which did preoccupy the ECF "establishment" for some time.
In my time on the ECF board the subject of RDK came up rarely but everybody was fully aware of the history
(as described in the Kingpin articles) and there was little support for rehabilitating RDK by giving him some
ECF role. Justin's posts serve a useful function in informing those new to the scene about past events but my
personal view is that he did much that was good for English chess as well as some rather dodgy things and
the Justin posts are telling us just one side of the RDK story.
-
- Posts: 10384
- Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:12 am
- Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester
Re: End of an era
Little support is more than none, which is too much; Justin quite rightly highlights the problems, whereas there seems to be a number of people happy to highlight anything they view as positive, which is depressing and indeed suggests that nothing has been learned by some
Any postings on here represent my personal views
-
- Posts: 8475
- Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm
Re: End of an era
"Little support" tends to be a euphemism for none.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.
-
- Posts: 1026
- Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:45 pm
Re: End of an era
To be specific the only voices I can recall supporting RDK were those of CJ and Andrew Poulson.Mick Norris wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:29 amLittle support is more than none, which is too much; Justin quite rightly highlights the problems, whereas there seems to be a number of people happy to highlight anything they view as positive, which is depressing and indeed suggests that nothing has been learned by some
What Justin posts is (to my knowledge) accurate, but I'm not sure where that leads us. Should the
ECF be issuing an official denunciation or conduct a show trial (II'm not sure the ECF has the power
to do the latter.)
-
- Posts: 10364
- Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:06 am
- Location: Somewhere you're not
Re: End of an era
And this is exactly the problem, that for decades, when people have said look, Ray has a long record as a liar and a cheat, other people react like this is unfair to Ray. Pity's sake! When there are people like Ray about, you keep them away from your affairs, because otherwise what you're saying is that though you know they're a habitual conman, you're just going to cross your fingers and hope you don't get conned.Mike Gunn wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:21 amJustin's posts serve a useful function in informing those new to the scene about past events but my
personal view is that he did much that was good for English chess as well as some rather dodgy things and
the Justin posts are telling us just one side of the RDK story.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
-
- Posts: 10364
- Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:06 am
- Location: Somewhere you're not
Re: End of an era
What is it with people on this thread and this bizarre employment of Stalin-era language?
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
-
- Posts: 2153
- Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 1:37 am
Re: End of an era
Shortly after Mike's period as ECF Chairman, Phil Ehr (as CEO) and Bob Kane (Director of Marketing) held discussions with Ray Keene about promoting the ECF in the Times.Mike Gunn wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:49 amTo be specific the only voices I can recall supporting RDK were those of CJ and Andrew Poulson.Mick Norris wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:29 amLittle support is more than none, which is too much; Justin quite rightly highlights the problems, whereas there seems to be a number of people happy to highlight anything they view as positive, which is depressing and indeed suggests that nothing has been learned by some
Last edited by Angus French on Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 1921
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:44 pm
Re: End of an era
I have to say I find it curious that, despite all that has been said about Ray, none of the mainstream Press - many of whose journalists read Private Eye and some of whom actually play chess - have elected (to the best of my knowledge) to run the story. But there's another unpublished story - completely different, to be clear, and I imply no moral equivalence - about another former British champion which has been widely discussed on this forum so it may be that pieces regarding the imperfections of English chess personalities just aren't considered to be of wider interest. If that's so then this thread, which has taken 26 pages to arrive at a consensus that "something should be done" without anyone actually offering to do anything, far less specify what, seems to me something of a waste of time. Instead, there are several actions which Ray's more vocal critics might consider including for example reading the guidance on https://www.gov.uk regarding removal of UK honours. To be clear, I'm not agitating for this but instead suggesting to the "something should be done" lobby that, if they feel so strongly about Ray, they follow their own advice.
-
- Posts: 10364
- Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:06 am
- Location: Somewhere you're not
Re: End of an era
Has it? A consensus? I would not have said so.Roger Lancaster wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:37 pmwhich has taken 26 pages to arrive at a consensus that "something should be done"
(In fact I don't think anybody has even suggested that anything "should be done" as such, at least not directly concerning Ray.)
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
-
- Posts: 1921
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:44 pm
Re: End of an era
I'm sorry if I've misunderstood you but I had rather formed the view that you were in the "something should be done" camp. If there's no-one, or virtually no-one, in that camp then I'm not entirely clear why this dialogue has continued as long as it has.JustinHorton wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:39 pmHas it? A consensus? I would not have said so.Roger Lancaster wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:37 pmwhich has taken 26 pages to arrive at a consensus that "something should be done"
(In fact I don't think anybody has even suggested that anything "should be done" as such, at least not directly concerning Ray.)
-
- Posts: 10364
- Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:06 am
- Location: Somewhere you're not
Re: End of an era
Well, I guess because it's an internet forum, and one based on the ongoing adventures of a contemporary individual, and hence for that reason occasionally it is revived. You could have a new thread the next time Ray did anything dubious - which would be the next time he did anything - but it is organisationally simpler this way, no?
As far as what should be done about Ray, I have literally no detailed proposals at all. The most important thing is that people should look squarely at what he is and how this has been possible. In my view this shouldn't be so hard but it would represent something of a break from normal practice.
As far as what should be done about Ray, I have literally no detailed proposals at all. The most important thing is that people should look squarely at what he is and how this has been possible. In my view this shouldn't be so hard but it would represent something of a break from normal practice.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
-
- Posts: 1057
- Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:40 pm
Re: End of an era
We've Got To Do Something
("Show trial" isn't Stalin-era language - what about the important contributions to that field from the Mao era, the Castro era, the Kim era and the Sankara era?)
("Show trial" isn't Stalin-era language - what about the important contributions to that field from the Mao era, the Castro era, the Kim era and the Sankara era?)
Donate to Sabrina's fundraiser at https://gofund.me/aeae42c7 to support victims of sexual abuse in the chess world.
Northumberland webmaster, Jesmond CC something-or-other. Views mine. Definitely below the Goodall Line.
Northumberland webmaster, Jesmond CC something-or-other. Views mine. Definitely below the Goodall Line.