Odd one out

[Gavin Strachan]

according to the map there is no Lancs or Manchester. It is all in the Kingdom of York. All Yorkshiremen afterall!

[Alex Holowczak]

according to the map there is no Lancs or Manchester. It is all in the Kingdom of York. All Yorkshiremen afterall!

Lancashire is one of the newer traditional counties. It was created from Cheshire territory though, not really the county of Yorkshire that became established. Lancashire has its own Duchy to this day. The Duchy of Lancaster still uses the traditional boundaries, i.e. it ignores Greater Manchester and Merseyside.

[Paul McKeown]

Middlesex extends to Uxbridge in the West, Hackney in the East, Enfield in the North and Feltham & Staines in the South. Clubs can affiliate to the Middlesex League that meet outside the County. For County players, the SCCU and ECF rules re eligibility apply.

Chris is absolutely right. Historically, Middlesex was bounded on the south, west and east by three rivers, the Thames, the Colne and the Lea and was bounded in the north by Grim's Dyke. What Grim's Dyke is, or was, I have no idea, just that it was built, or existed, long before internet bulletin boards were invented to talk about it.

[Chris Fewtrell]

An ancient earthwork which once stretched 6 miles from Cuckoo Hill, Pinner to Pear Wood, Stanmore. Named after Grim ( the Norse god Woden)

[carstenpedersen]

An ancient earthwork which once stretched 6 miles from Cuckoo Hill, Pinner to Pear Wood, Stanmore. Named after Grim ( the Norse god Woden)

Remnants if Grims dyke still exists in places, the London LOOP footpath follows it for a bit near Hatch End.. From memory it now marks the boundary of a golf course, so it's come down in the world a bit.

What marked the Herts-Middlesex border between Stanmore and Enfield? In particular how did Barnet end up in Herts and Potters Bar in Middlesex?

[Chris Fewtrell]

Potters Bar has an EN postcode. It has been in Herts & Middlesex, but is now part of Hertsmere.

[Adam Raoof]

Potters Bar has an EN postcode. It has been in Herts & Middlesex, but is now part of Hertsmere.

But having said that, they have fielded teams in the Middlesex League

[Chris Fewtrell]

As have Barnet Knights on occasion

[Richard Bates]

I have just looked up our constitution and it refers to "the County of Surrey and the London Boroughs of Croydon, Kingston-upon-Thames, Lambeth, Merton, Richmond-upon-Thames, Southwark, Sutton and Wandsworth" which is a fine modern definition (but not what I remembered) and obviously includes Camberley.

Bit cheeky nicking Twickenham like that! Still i think Richmond has always been a bit of a tricky one due to Richmond and Twickenham Chess Club's geographical location historically varying between the counties.

[Alex Holowczak]

For what it's worth, the Gazetteer places Richmond in Surrey, and Twickenham in Middlesex.

[Richard James]

I have just looked up our constitution and it refers to "the County of Surrey and the London Boroughs of Croydon, Kingston-upon-Thames, Lambeth, Merton, Richmond-upon-Thames, Southwark, Sutton and Wandsworth" which is a fine modern definition (but not what I remembered) and obviously includes Camberley.

Bit cheeky nicking Twickenham like that! Still i think Richmond has always been a bit of a tricky one due to Richmond and Twickenham Chess Club's geographical location historically varying between the counties.

Indeed. Not to mention Richmond Junior Chess Club's geographical location. And also due to Richmond being the only London Borough with territory both sides of the River Thames. However, Surrey also now includes places like Sunbury and Staines, which used to be in Middlesex.

There are also anomalies between physical location and postal address. The school where I'm currently based, in Hampton Court, is situated north of the Thames in the Borough of Richmond upon Thames, but its postal address is East Molesey, Surrey, which would place it outside Greater London in the Borough of Elmbridge. Mike Basman has agreed that our pllayers should take part in the Middlesex, rather than the Surrey Megafinals of the UKCC.

A mile along the road, Hampton Wick has a postal address of Kingston, Surrey, but is again north of the Thames in the Borough of Richmond upon Thames.

There has always (at least since the mid 1960s) been an understanding that members of Richmond & Twickenham Chess Club are eligible for either Middlesex or Surrey in county matches, and we currently have members playing for both counties - but not at the same time.

[Richard James]

For what it's worth, the Gazetteer places Richmond in Surrey, and Twickenham in Middlesex.

Quite correct. The boundary is the River Thames.

[Richard Bates]

Of course as usual in these topics the Royal Mail only serve to confuse the issue even further. I live in Richmond (Surrey) but have a "Twickenham" postcode!

[Alex Holowczak]

Of course as usual in these topics the Royal Mail only serve to confuse the issue even further. I live in Richmond (Surrey) but have a Twickenham postcode!

Postcodes were originally a Soviet idea. So if you're going to blame anyone, blame them.

[Richard Thursby]

The Middlesex CCA constitution includes Richmond-upon-Thames in its list of boroughs.

Indeed. Not to mention Richmond Junior Chess Club's geographical location.

Given that the club meets within the borough of Richmond-upon-Thames, that name is perfectly acceptable, and could be a considered a shortening of Richmond-upon-Thames Junior Chess Club.

There are also anomalies between physical location and postal address.

Large parts of Buckinghamshire have the postcode HP, for Hemel Hempstead in Hertfordshire. The postcode indicates somewhere for the post to be sent as part of the process of sorting. It is not inconceivable that the one associated with you is the other side of a river.

There has always (at least since the mid 1960s) been an understanding that members of Richmond & Twickenham Chess Club are eligible for either Middlesex or Surrey in county matches, and we currently have members playing for both counties - but not at the same time.

Don't I know. That's the only occasion I have so far had to turn down a request to play for a team because I was playing for the opposition. There's no need for any understanding about it, at least not now; I can't speak for forty years ago. Both the Surrey and Middlesex CCA constitutions include Richmond-upon-Thames in the area they cover, so anyone who qualifies by virtue of a connection with the borough (be it by birth, residency, work, study, or a member of the club) is eligible to play for both counties, though not in the same season.

Postcodes were originally a Soviet idea. So if you're going to blame anyone, blame them.

Postcodes were originally to help with delivery of post, but got hijacked by insurance companies to set premiums.