British Championships Chess Coaching

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Simon Dixon
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Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by Simon Dixon » Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:31 pm

No-one at the CCA feels they are above the rules.
That is not the impression I am getting.
It is others who have been using this argument of accreditation in order to discredit us in some way.
I think you are discrediting yourselves, and then blaming others for trying to discredit you in "some way", as you put it which is clearly not the case.

It is also grossly unfair that suddenly we are subjected to this all this scrutiny when it seems that the people in power can pick and choose who accreditation should be applicable to.
And this statement is of course not having yet another pop at ECF. The ECF does not pick and choose, they have a process in place which you obviously failed to follow.
I should hope that someone can give Sabrina a good reason as to why not.
Once again at the risk of being seen as patronising, the only reason that comes to mind is her CRB is out of date. The ECF is not aware that she has a folder full of CRB's in her possession.

Paul Dargan
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Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by Paul Dargan » Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:36 pm

What does ECF accreditation mean?

Trying to move this topic along ... one of the key issues raised is what does ECF accreditation actually mean for the coach, parents, customers, etc... Now I'm not ECF-accredited and never have been, but many years ago I was a BCF-accredited coach. Back then there was less awareness of the need for something like CRB, but there was a weekend session with John Littlewood, where a group of would-be coaches discussed how to structure sessions, had to deliver short 'lessons', etc... with John taking notes about each individual and at least in theory the course was pass/fail.

There's clearly potential issues in the extent to which ECF could/should/wants to assess the quality of training/coaching provided (and the necessary appeals process if someone doesn't like the assessment!) - but I wonder whether some differentiation/ tiering of accreditation would be attractive to coaches or potential customers?

Or we could run something parallel to the FIDE scheme, where coaches are accredited to work with players of differing strengths...

Perhaps as some have commented, over and above a basic CRB/competence check it's down to personal preferences, word-of-mouth recommendation, chemistry between student and coach?

Things for the new directors to think about perhaps?


Paul

Paul Cooksey

Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by Paul Cooksey » Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:45 pm

@Simon Dixon:I feel you are being unduly provocative. Given your post on the value of coaching, I do have some concern that might be your aim. But since I was vexed yesterday, I'll empathise and take your comments at face value
Jovanka has said she does not feel the ECF has acted fairly, which would explain these actions. Naturally we are all curious, but this is such a serious point it would be better addressed by a senior ECF offical behind closed doors.

Paul Cooksey

Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by Paul Cooksey » Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:51 pm

Paul Dargan wrote:What does ECF accreditation mean? (snip) Things for the new directors to think about perhaps?
I agree. A hope to see Junior Director who sets strategy and standards, then engages with the bodies that offer coaching.

I fear a perceived or real conflict of interest is at the heart of this dispute. But as I have said a couple of times, I think that is best resolved behind closed doors and appropriate lessons learnt.

Simon Dixon
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Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by Simon Dixon » Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:14 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:I feel you are being unduly provocative. Given your post on the value of coaching, I do have some concern that might be your aim. But since I was vexed yesterday, I'll empathise and take your comments at face value
Jovanka has said she does not feel the ECF has acted fairly, which would explain these actions. Naturally we are all curious, but this is such a serious point it would be better addressed by a senior ECF offical behind closed doors.
Sorry if you feel I am being unduly provocative, quite frankly I think the idea that the ECF would deliberately or maliciously cause problems for people is madness. If I am alone in that though then so be it, we are all entitled to have an opinion.

LozCooper

Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by LozCooper » Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:18 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:@Simon Dixon:I feel you are being unduly provocative. Given your post on the value of coaching, I do have some concern that might be your aim. But since I was vexed yesterday, I'll empathise and take your comments at face value
Jovanka has said she does not feel the ECF has acted fairly, which would explain these actions. Naturally we are all curious, but this is such a serious point it would be better addressed by a senior ECF offical behind closed doors.
There are a lot of things being discussed away from the forum but I don't think Jovanka, Keith, Sabrina or myself can be blamed for feeling the need to respond when so many comments are made from people, who often through no fault of their own because they are not directly involved, do not know the full facts. As you say above though, certain things are best left behind closed doors although it does gives people licence to keep demanding answers over every fine detail knowing that you are either seen to be evading the question or discussing things that should remain private.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:31 pm

Carl Hibbard wrote:
jhouska wrote:Furthermore, Sabrina has stated time and time again that she has been accredited and that for whatever strange reason her name has not been put on the list on the webpage. I should hope that someone can give Sabrina a good reason as to why not.
This does appear to be the key question :!:
It would depend which ECF person has responsibility for keeping that list updated. There are lots of pages on the ECF website, some in the form of reports that don't need updating, some in the form of static lists that do need updating. I've in the past and just recently pointed out some things that needed updating, and things have been updated, but I'm never sure whether the pages I point out are the responsibility of the webmaster to update or one of the ECF directors. In this case, as someone has pointed out, there is a duplicate list on another website (ecfcoaching.org.uk) which is a different domain name. Whether that is all on the same servers or separate, I don't know, but there does seem to be a need for synchronisation there.

Michele Clack
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Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by Michele Clack » Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:35 pm

I hope that Jovanka Sabrina and Keith manage to put this controversy behind them and enjoy their coaching at the British.
As far as I can see the Accreditation debate is a red herring. The issue seems to be that private coaches should not spend any time with the youngsters they are coaching in the tournament analysis room at The British so that the ECF cannot be seen to be endorsing them, for legal reasons. Presumably this will apply to unpaid coaches as well as paid ones. In order to be fair to Sabrina and her team I hope this will be carefully policed.

Andrew Farthing
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Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by Andrew Farthing » Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:42 pm

Back on page 7 of this thread, I tried to make the ECF's position regarding the original issue clear. I have tried to be careful in this thread not to personalise my comments, sticking to statements on ECF policy.

That said, I did try to convey my support for the Chevannes Chess Academy initiative, and I believe that Sabrina acknowledged this in a subsequent post. The ECF is not trying to block anything and I do not accept that we have acted unfairly. As I've commented before, we do not sanction or forbid private coaching at the British Championships. The only point on which we have to be careful is when describing what is and isn't "official" ECF coaching. Again, see my comments back on p.7.

The questions about the reasons for individual coaches' accreditation status are not ones I intend to answer on a public forum. I am dealing with the matter through private channels, and I don't propose to say anything else on the subject here.

I am horrified by the negative way in which this thread has developed and feel so sorry for Sabrina, Jovanka and Keith that they have been put under public pressure in this way for what was and is a thoroughly positive initiative.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:51 pm

michele clack wrote:I hope that Jovanka Sabrina and Keith manage to put this controversy behind them and enjoy their coaching at the British.
Agreed. And hopefully all those coaching and being coached at the British will achieve their aims, and those watching at home and at the venue will all enjoy some high-quality games of chess.
michele clack wrote:As far as I can see the Accreditation debate is a red herring. The issue seems to be that private coaches should not spend any time with the youngsters they are coaching in the tournament analysis room at The British so that the ECF cannot be seen to be endorsing them, for legal reasons. Presumably this will apply to unpaid coaches as well as paid ones. In order to be fair to Sabrina and her team I hope this will be carefully policed.
I think rather the issue is that the ECF can't officially endorse the analysis room being used by coaches and their pupils, but equally they can't police such venues either. The usual approach is treat it like any public venue. Anyone can use it for analysis, but if the venue gets too full, then you have to ration the time spent in there. I've always used analysis rooms primarily to analyse with an opponent after the game, and then (if the room is not full or there are not others waiting), then I might use it to go over games with a friend or two, and finally, I might very occasionally use it to remind myself of some opening preparation before a particularly crucial game, but that really only shows lack of preparation, as that should be done well in advance.

The key etiquette to observe is whether the room is full or not, and if so, to give those players engaging in post-match analysis priority. Also, if the chairs are at a premium, then the players get the chairs and spectators and coaches and other hangers-on have to stand. Simple. Formal, structured/group coaching sessions should clearly be done elsewhere.

But really, it is not necessary to debate this on this forum. Let's just leave the organisers of the British to deal with stuff like this on the ground (they are quite capable of handling this), and those of us not going there can sit back and enjoy the games (hopefully, if the games transmission works). Talking of which, there is something I want to ask, but I'll do that in another thread.

John Upham
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Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by John Upham » Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:12 pm

The ECF Office hold a copy on file of one of my dozen or so CRB letters, but not all of them.

The one that they hold will become three years old in around a years time.

Around a month or two prior to this letter becoming three years old the Office will write / email me informing of this.

I then have the option of providing a more recent CRB letter to the office.

If I forget or choose not to accept this invitation then I expect to be removed from the list of accredited coaches (and list of arbiters if I was one).

The Office will contact myself and instruct me to remove myself from the list of accredited coaches at http://www.ecfcoaching.org.uk/ which I would do along with any others instructed to remove.

Periodically, I am instructed to add new coaches and to resurrect old ones previously removed : the reasons for removal are not provided.

I retain a certificate of accreditation and card which I carry for any coaching work / duties regardless of appearing on any list.

If I was removed from the list then I know what I would need to do to be restored.

I believe that in the Office that the Office Manager (Tina Weddell) makes the decision to remove coaches / arbiters based on the criteria mentioned above.

I believe that the ETTA works in the same way for its coaches which are listed on the ETTA site. My table tennis coach is ETTA accredited and superb!
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Alan Burke

Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by Alan Burke » Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:09 pm

Having again asked about the £600 which Sabrina says she has had to spend so the "nit-pickers" won't complain at her using the analysis room, Loz Cooper replies ....

"Would it be asking too much for you to stop playing detective and accept that whatever the rights and wrongs of this thread that it would be far more productive to wish her well and hope that the coaching is a success?"

OK, I wish Sabrina well with her coaching (and I do really mean that), but the point still remains that Sabrina posted that she has had to pay £600 because of the "nit-pickers", yet she had also previously stated that she had no intention of using the analysis room - so how could the "nit-pickers" be responsible for her having to pay out the £600 ?

Loz Cooper .. you say I shouldn't play detective; but all I have done is to ask a question regarding a statement which Sabrina has made - a question which still remains unanswered. Although you don't seem to want me to pursue this matter, you do seem to think it is OK for Sabrina to make a statement in which other people (ie the "nit-pickers") are named as a reason for her having to pay out £600, and also seem to expect everyone to just accept that statement as a totally true matter of fact. All I am asking is to be shown how exactly it was the "nit-pickers" fault or maybe a further statement to withdraw that claim - and if that is the case, I am sure many people would appreciate such a gesture.

Just so you know my point of view regarding Sabrina's coaching - I really do appreciate the hard work she obviously puts into chess but I do feel that she sometimes comes across as someone who wants things to be done her way and feels that anyone who dares to disagree is just trying to undermine her position and the work she does.

No, I don't play chess and don't coach in that arena, but I have had experience of being in charge of professional sports' teams at International level as well as having management positions in a work environment - and to just expect people to respect and agree with your decisions because you are the one in a position of authority or because you have "been there and done it" isn't always the way to get the best results. If anyone else has an alternative idea (even if it is the tea-boy contradicting the Managing Director's viewpoint), you shouldn't think they are just trying to undermine you, but should listen to all the points of view. OK, in the end you might still go ahead and do as you originally wished to, but don't alienate people by just brushing them to one side as though you always know best - and don't think people are criticising you personally if they disagree with your own viewpoint.

Richard James
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Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by Richard James » Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:13 pm

The 3 year limit for the validity of CRB checks was rescinded a few years ago. They now have no expiry date.

An organization such as the ECF may well consider it good practice to ask for checks to be renewed every 3 years. However, if they do so they should give, say, 3 months notice before removing names from a list of accredited coaches, so that they have time to get another check done. Perhaps they do this already - I have no idea. Removing a name from such a list without warning or reason, if that is indeed what is happening, seems unacceptable to me.

By the way, best wishes to Sabrina, Jovanka and Keith for the success of their coaching initiative at the British Championships. I'm sure it will be very popular.

LozCooper

Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by LozCooper » Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:38 pm

Alan Burke wrote:
don't alienate people by just brushing them to one side as though you always know best .
Oh the irony of that post coming from you :lol:

Alan Burke

Re: British Championships Chess Coaching

Post by Alan Burke » Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:49 pm

Loz Cooper - just what is it about you that you try and pick on something to disagree or argue about ? You previously asked for me to praise Sabrina, which I did so, yet no mention is made of that !

I try and be postive and you just want to cause further disagreement ...... and I see you have still failed to expand on your answer to my original question regarding the £600 - or is that because you can't give one ?

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