Eliminating/discouraging draws

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by Carl Hibbard » Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:22 pm

Sit back and just enjoy:

http://youtu.be/GoKFkNn6QnI
Cheers
Carl Hibbard

Justin Hadi

Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by Justin Hadi » Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:20 pm

great video!

Paul McKeown
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Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by Paul McKeown » Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:28 pm

This is quite funny, actually. I think we've fallen for a Chandler trap: GC chucks in some random madness, and everyone else ends up arguing, as he chuckles away behind his keyboard. :shock:

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Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by Paul McKeown » Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:32 pm

Carl,

Thanks for the Spassky - Karpov clip. Fabulous, can we get the Beeb to rebroadcast all of the Master Games on BBC4 sometime? Just grabbed The Master Game - Book Two of a shelf. Blimey that takes me back. :shock:
Last edited by Paul McKeown on Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by Paul McKeown » Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:33 pm

Jack,

Great game, loved playing through it!

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Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by Paul McKeown » Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:39 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:For a slightly mad line, consider 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Nf6 4 Ng5 Nxe4. Some engines even consider it a better move than 4 .. Bc5.
That looks seriously scary. Obviously 5. Ng5xe4 just gets the old fork trick, so therefore 5. Nxf7. Then Black follows up with 5... Qf6 or 5... Qh4 - not sure - I'm playing blind here as I type, but that is a serious Wilkes Barr type counterattack. You intimate that it is not entirely sound, but that is certainly something I wouldn't like to have to face without preparation!

Tell us more!

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:00 am

I think the line that seriously tests it is 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.d3.

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Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by Paul McKeown » Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:05 am

IM Jack Rudd wrote:I think the line that seriously tests it is 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.d3.
Right, definitely a touch of the Wilkes Barrs with 5. Bxf7+.

So 6. d3 hits the Ne4 and the Ke7 obstructs the Qd8 from defending g5, so 6... Nexg5 would fail to the 7. Bg5 skewer. Very logical. Going to have to get a board out to think about this.

Thanks, Jack!

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Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by Paul McKeown » Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:19 am

Jack,
In that case, I'm struggling to make out Black's compensation. 6... Nf6 looks limp, 6... Kd6 berserk, 6... h6 pointless, 6... d5 rather inconsequential, 6... Nf2 so what. Good sequence, 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. d3. 6... Nd6, surely not? I guess it has to be 6... Nf6 7. Bb3 d5, pretend your playing some sort of Steinitz gambit?
Last edited by Paul McKeown on Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:24 am

Paul McKeown wrote:
Tell us more!
As Jack says Bxf7+, regain the pawn and displace the King. That's enough for about a three quarters of a pawn advantage according to some engines.

I first saw the idea on some internet forum. It's a shock that it's even possible since no traditional book bothers to mention it. The counter hack with .. Bc5 (Wilkes-Barre) is well known and probably occupies several pages of a book or two.

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Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by Paul McKeown » Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:28 am

Thanks, Roger. I guess Black is going to claim a tempo or two and a pawn centre in compensation for his displaced king, a Steinitz Gambit analogue. Both sides are going to lose time with dropping pieces back. Looks like it could be rubbished on close inspection, but definitely something to chew on. Maybe worth a punt in a blitz game, interesting idea. Actually, wow! Thanks for the education. :D

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by Geoff Chandler » Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:48 am

Golly. Never thought I'd get a nibble from Paul Mck. ;)

Not hiding Paul, The Edinburgh Festival is on.

(Everyone who offers a refuatation is a Bedroom Borg, the country is full of them!)

Wee serious bit.

I cannot argue with 6.d3 Carl it's a developing move.
I would totally hate to drag that Bishop back to e7.
Never pick an opening fight with a player who develops.

End of wee serious bit.

It's a much better move than running that b-pawn.
Obviously suggested by an Alekhine player who is used to wasting
tons of tempo with a Knight.......(splash, another hook in the water.) :)

The Two Knights:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Nxe4

4...Nxe4 is a genuine opening trap. If it gets spotted then Black is in trouble.

5. Bxf7+ Ke7

Image

Estrin mentions it in his Two Knights Defence(a very good book and one of
Aaron Summerscale's E=Bay books for 99p - well worth it.) Estrin suggests 6.d4! (his exclam).

Muller and Knaak also go for 6.d4! (their exclam) in their 222 Opening Traps after 1.e4.

After 6.d3 they think 6...Nf6 7.Bb3 d5 is OK for Black.
(Estrin does not mention 6.d3 )
It's not too uncommon, according to them it's been tried 32 times OTB.
On my DB with over 1 million under 1400 games it's been tried 30 times
with White winning most of the games.

Looks like the 6.d5 idea is 6.d5 h6 7.Nxe4 Kxf7 8.d5 or 8.dxe5.
But 6.d3 is surely OK, 6.d4 looks sharper.

You could go for 6.Nxe4 without waiting for Black to play h6.
You try it before ...h6 so the Black King does not have luft.

It sets a counter trap. A good ploy, trap setters are often fall into traps.
Something about only seeing their threats/traps.

6.Nxe4 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Kg8 (plausible, they will spot 8.Qb3+ is not a threat.) 8.Ng5!

Image

8...Qxg5 9.Qd5 mate. It's either that or Black drops his Queen.
An old trick with a new move order.

══════════════════════════════════════════════════

A good entertaing game Jack.

I've had a few games with that variation

Here:

Image

Instead of 10.Nxe6 (pawn grabber ;) )

I play 10.Nxb5 Qa5+ 11.Bd2 Qxb5 12.Qxg4.

Image

Offering the b-pawn which I think can be taken but no one ever has.
So I don't know if I would play after 12...Qxb2 13.Qxe6 or 13.Nxe6.
Either way I'm looking to sac both Rooks.

I know your opponent Eoin Campbell very well. He is a good mate of mine,
We go back about 30 years....longer.

I remember in the 80's he played in that many tournaments
he played close on to 300 serious OTB games in one year.

So now we can swap wins v Eoin Campbell.

He won't mind me dropping the game on here.
Like me he blows hot and cold. When he's hot he can be very good.
He clobbered me good and proper the last time we played in the league.
However here he blows cold, I mate him with a Knight.

E. Campbell - G. Chandler, Edinburgh League, Sandy Bells v Wandering Dragons, 1994

1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 d6 3.Bg2 e5 4.0-0 Be7 5.d3 Nc6 6.c4 h6 7.Nc3 Be6 8.b4 Qc8 9.b5 Nd8 10.c5 Bh3 11.Ba3 Bxg2 12.Kxg2 Ne6 13.Rc1 Ng5 14.Ne4 Qh3+ 15.Kg1 Ng4 16.Ned2 d5 17.Re1 e4 18.dxe4 dxe4 19.Nf1 Rd8 20.Qa4 exf3 21.b6+ Kf8 22.exf3 Nxf3+ 23.Kh1 Nxf2 mate.

"Typical Chandler game, attack with Queen and Knights. That's all he knows." Keith Ruxton.
He's right.

matt_ward
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Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by matt_ward » Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:28 am

These are fantastic positions I am certainly going to have a look at in some depth, Always somthing you can learn in chess thats what makes this great game.

Justin Hadi

Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by Justin Hadi » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:08 am

Here is a nice game attacking with queen and knights. More of a closed position than some of the earlier efforts. And some other pieces which get in the way... A good way to avoid a draw playing the hippo. My record in longplay : W2 D1 L4, but two great wins!

Faulkes, Nick - Hadi, Justin 2009.05.04
Round 11.4 4NCL/Div3/OXF2-WR2 Daventry

1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 e6 4.Nf3 d6 5.c4 Ne7 6.Nc3 g6 7.d5 e5 8.Bg5 Bg7 9.Qd2 h6 10.Bh4 Nd7 11.Bc2 a6 12.Rc1 Bc8 13.a3 Nf8 14.b4 Nh7 15.c5 g5 16.Bg3 Ng6 17.O-O h5 18.h3 g4 19.hxg4 hxg4 20.Nh2 Nf6 21.Qe2 Bh6 22.Rce1 Bf4 23.Qd3 Nh5 24.Bd1 Qg5 25.cxd6 cxd6 26.Bxf4 Ngxf4 27.Qe3 Qh4 28.g3 Qxh2+ 29.Kxh2 Nxg3+ 30.Kg1 Rh1 mate

Justin Hadi

Re: Eliminating/discouraging draws

Post by Justin Hadi » Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:55 pm

I think it's quite an interesting debate actually... Playing theory lines vs offbeat stuff.

I would mention a recent bestselling book involving a certain 3 moves as black against anything, but its author seems to have a knack for self-publicity...

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