Compulsory Membership?

[Roger de Coverly]

All submitted games qualify for grading, regardless of whether players are ECF members or not. No grades are hidden.

Actually you wonder what will happen in the local Yorkshire evening leagues. Uniquely they have a concession at present that anyone who is an ECF Direct or MO member will have all their games graded, even if against a non-member. Unless there's a secret deal, this is withdrawn, so no evening games will be graded at all unless either the ECF, Yorkshire or the local league filter out for grading games played by members against other members. Local Yorkshire leagues are affected, as no games played in them will qualify for national grading. Perhaps the CEO said something different, or no-one asked him that direct question.

[Andrew Zigmond]

All submitted games qualify for grading, regardless of whether players are ECF members or not. No grades are hidden.

Actually you wonder what will happen in the local Yorkshire evening leagues. Uniquely they have a concession at present that anyone who is an ECF Direct or MO member will have all their games graded, even if against a non-member. Unless there's a secret deal, this is withdrawn, so no evening games will be graded at all unless either the ECF, Yorkshire or the local league filter out for grading games played by members against other members. Local Yorkshire leagues are affected, as no games played in them will qualify for national grading. Perhaps the CEO said something different, or no-one asked him that direct question.

It may well be that the Yorkshire evening leagues no longer qualify for ECF grading. When I said that those leagues were unaffected I meant that at present they pay no game fee and are not affiliated to the ECF so contrary to some of the scaremongering this will not change.

[Mike Truran]

In the 4NCL it's effectively £ 27 a head, rather than £ 6.

4NCL players don't just play in the 4NCL. They are paying an upgrade from either Bronze or Silver to play in a FIDE rated event (and can then also play in congresses and other FIDE rated events such as e2e4 at no extra cost), but they are certainly not paying £27 just to play in the 4NCL.

[Andrew Zigmond]

Another question - the YCA treasurer gave me some membership forms as I was leaving. They referred to a £1 charge if the company is wound up. I thought this requirement had been removed but maybe that was a proposal that never got off the ground. Could somebody please clarify.

[Roger de Coverly]

but they are certainly not paying £27 just to play in the 4NCL.

If it's the only FIDE rated chess they play, as it is for many players, then it is. The younger players, according to Ben Purton, find it a particular problem. Those that currently pay get a better financial deal next season with the anticipated reduction in club membership fees and board fees for county matches.

[Mike Truran]

Sorry to press the point, but no it isn't. If 4NCL players are already playing league and congress chess (as virtually all do re league chess, and many do re congress chess), then they are paying the top-up from Bronze or Silver respectively to Gold to play in the 4NCL, not the whole £27.

[Sean Hewitt]

Actually you wonder what will happen in the local Yorkshire evening leagues. Uniquely they have a concession at present that anyone who is an ECF Direct or MO member will have all their games graded, even if against a non-member. Unless there's a secret deal, this is withdrawn, so no evening games will be graded at all unless either the ECF, Yorkshire or the local league filter out for grading games played by members against other members.

That's not a unique concession (see below).

All submitted games qualify for grading, regardless of whether players are ECF members or not.

That's not correct. From the MO agreement which Leicestershire signed in 2006

12. MO shall be entitled to submit for grading the results of ECF Members in non
registered events.

I assume that Yorkshire and other MOs have a similar provision. We have no such non registered events in Leicestershire but in a non registered event within an MO territory, a game is graded for the ECF member, but not for the non-ECF member. These events are noted 'RM' in Richard Haddrell's list of events submitted for grading. I understand that that is what happens with local leagues such as the Sheffield league.

For example, take a look at http://www.ecfgrading.org.uk/?ref=26471 ... =453339798. The player had an 'E' category grade in 2006 despite playing 41 games. This is because he was not an ECF member, so his 32 games in the Sheffield league were not included in his grading calculation. His grade was based purely on 9 games played in the Yorkshire league.

However, one of this players 32 Sheffield league games was against me. I was an ECF member, so the game counted in my grading calculations for that year.

[Roger de Coverly]

Sorry to press the point, but no it isn't. If 4NCL players are already playing league and congress chess (as virtually all do re league chess, and many do re congress chess), then they are paying the top-up from Bronze or Silver respectively to Gold to play in the 4NCL, not the whole £27.

Next season yes, the current season and before no. This is one of the price reductions the ECF is delivering to the more active players.

I would not be quite so sure about the "also play league chess ", as playing the odd weekend of 4NCL can be an attractive proposition for those not in a position to play much or any evening or local weekend chess.

Whilst you can play a single league game at the cost to the league of £ 2 or a domestic Congress at a cost of £ 6 to the Congress, both of which are likely to be charged back to the player, the only such concession for FIDE rated events is the 4NCL wild card one. Even there, if you had an inactive rating, activated by playing one game and didn't join the ECF, they, the ECF will make it look as if you've been suspended.

[Mike Truran]

Next season yes, the current season and before no.

But we've always been talking about next season, not "the current season or before".

I would not be quite so sure about the "also play league chess ", as playing the odd weekend of 4NCL can be an attractive proposition for those not in a position to play much or any evening or local weekend chess.

I think I would be sure. I don't think anyone needs to do a detailed analysis to know that the vast majority of 4NCL players already play league chess.

Why can't you ever just put your hand up and accept that you're not right?

[Roger de Coverly]

I assume that Yorkshire and other MOs have a similar provision.

But prospectively, will "framework" agreements have the same clause? It is general understanding that the £ 2 per head "residual Game Fee" applies regardless from 1st September 2012 and one sided grading no longer applies.

One sided grading was a special deal for the local Yorkshire leagues. Your game was graded because you were an ECF member at the time of the game and nothing to do with the status of Leicester.

In its earlier form, Direct Members could have games anywhere graded. This would had covered e2e4 players in Dublin had not the ECF suddenly decided that it had withdrawn the scheme. Because of the sandbagging risk, the facility was then restricted to pre-notified Foreign events, but came back to life as a concession to Yorkshire players who were members.

Is it going to come down to the rules for registering events? So locally, in the unlikely event of Berks, Middlesex and Surrey all being prepared to sign framework agreements, would it be possible for the Thames Valley and Surrey Border leagues to be non registered, thereby allowing non ECF members to take part for no payments to the ECF, but without getting published grades?

[Roger de Coverly]

Why can't you ever just put your hand up and accept that you're not right?

I played in a team alongside someone who had his (inactive) international rating trashed for agreeing to play as a one day wild card. I've also played alongside players whose sole activity was in the 4NCL. They do exist and the 4NCL should be a valuable way of appealing to players outside of traditional club and county set ups.

[Andrew Farthing]

Actually you wonder what will happen in the local Yorkshire evening leagues. Uniquely they have a concession at present that anyone who is an ECF Direct or MO member will have all their games graded, even if against a non-member. Unless there's a secret deal, this is withdrawn, so no evening games will be graded at all unless either the ECF, Yorkshire or the local league filter out for grading games played by members against other members.

That's not a unique concession (see below).

All submitted games qualify for grading, regardless of whether players are ECF members or not.

That's not correct. From the MO agreement which Leicestershire signed in 2006

12. MO shall be entitled to submit for grading the results of ECF Members in non
registered events.

I assume that Yorkshire and other MOs have a similar provision. We have no such non registered events in Leicestershire but in a non registered event within an MO territory, a game is graded for the ECF member, but not for the non-ECF member. These events are noted 'RM' in Richard Haddrell's list of events submitted for grading. I understand that that is what happens with local leagues such as the Sheffield league.

Let me try to clarify this.

The clause which Sean quotes from the MO agreement needs to be set in context. It still exists in the new agreement, to operate from 1 Sept 2012, but it should be seen in the context of the preceding clauses:

10. MO shall register any graded events which it proposes to organise in accordance with the Game Fee Bye Laws

11. MO shall be entitled to submit for grading the results of ECF Members in non registered events.

12. MO shall submit the results of any registered graded events and non registered events in an electronic format and by deadlines both as stipulated from time to time by the Director responsible for Grading.

What this means is that the MO itself can choose to register the events which take place under its auspices (the key word is "organise"). If they do, the Game Fee Bye Laws apply and the results of non-members are graded and Game Fee is liable on those results. If they don't, the event is processed in the grading system (as has been described earlier in the thread) but only the results of ECF members are counted.

The situation with the eight unaffiliated leagues in Yorkshire is different. These leagues are separate entities with their own constitutions. The YCA makes a distinction on its own website between its own events and what are referred to as "Local Leagues". Consequently, the eight leagues sit outside the ECF framework, and what is happening now is a special arrangement.

The ECF could choose at any time to stop accepting the results from the eight unaffiliated Yorkshire leagues. When I was at the YCA meeting, I was careful to make the point that the ECF was not obliged to process the results. I also said that the ECF Board had not to that point discussed stopping doing so, but this did not preclude such a discussion happening at a future date.

As of now, the status quo prevails, but this may change.

[Mike Truran]

They do exist and the 4NCL should be a valuable way of appealing to players outside of traditional club and county set ups.

They may well exist, but using what is a tiny minority of 4NCL players in support of a contention that the overall cost to all 4NCL players is £27 is disingenuous in the extreme.

Like the Welsh rugby team, you never lose - the other side just score more points.

[Roger de Coverly]

I think I would be sure. I don't think anyone needs to do a detailed analysis to know that the vast majority of 4NCL players already play league chess.

Given the number of inactive players on the ECF grading site, there are perhaps eight to ten times as many players who know or knew how to play chess at a reasonable level, than currently play. If the 4NCL were to appeal to any of these, one of the costs of their participation is £ 27 payable to the ECF. That is background fact, not opinion.

Once the ECF has cut itself off from activity related funding, the only way it can increase its income is to sign up more players. It shouldn't rely solely on club members for financing.

[Sean Hewitt]

One sided grading was a special deal for the local Yorkshire leagues.

No it wasn't. The section of the MO that I quoted was from the Leicestershire MO. We could have operated one side grading in the Leicestershire league or any other local event if we had wanted to, but we chose not to do so.

Your game was graded because you were an ECF member at the time of the game and nothing to do with the status of Leicester.

I know that. I was using that game as an example for Angus, who thought that one-sided grading did not occur.