ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

[E Michael White]

Does correcting an error in this way cost a fee? That's not the impression I've got from instances where players' nationalities have been corrected

Exactly !

If the ECF ditch a bundle of players in their deregistration manoeuvre, players may consider it a good time to correct the errors and reregister with the right federation. Would the ECF not be in error in any case where they did not check whether a player wanted to be registered other than ENG in their first FIDE rated event ?

Trinidad there you go Jack.

[Sean Hewitt]

Would the ECF not be in error in any case where they did not check whether a player wanted to be registered other than ENG in their first FIDE rated event

No they wouldn't because it is not the job of the ECF to check that. That responsibility falls to tournament organisers, which is why e2e4 events ask you for your federation although I'm not sure that all FIDE rated events do do that. We have had a small number of players claim that they were registered to the wrong federation, only to be shown the entry form that they themselves completed. That usually ends the discussion!

[E Michael White]

Ok; its the tournament organiser/arbiter then, who may be an ECF registered arbiter. FIDE events in ENG have to comply with all the rating requirements for which the ECF is the only recognised umbrella. So its probably academic who actually writes ENG on the paper that goes to FIDE, as ultimately registration ( and deregistration as they are now claiming) is in the ECFs court.

Prior to e2e4 if you were an ECF member and turned up at a FIDE rated event you would be registered as ENG even if you were qualified to play for more than 1 nation, without the arbiter/organiser checking whether that was your wish. Before that you didnt have to be a BCF member for the BCF to put you down as ENG without checking if you entered from an address in England.

There are of course distinctions between being qualified to represent a country, being a member of a chess federation, legal nationality , dual nationality and country v principality. There are differences between EU states v non EU states and Wales v England and Scotland v England. Whilst this information can be ascertained with difficulty I would not bank on Mr Arbiter knowing all the pros and cons. I dont think the ECF have thought this through enough to be ready to go.

[Roger de Coverly]

That responsibility falls to tournament organisers, which is why e2e4 events ask you for your federation although I'm not sure that all FIDE rated events do do that (ask your FIDE federation).

It's now the practice to list all performances on the FIDE site, even if they don't qualify for an initial part rating. For example
http://ratings.fide.com/individual_calc ... 2011-07-01

So really the question becomes:- If you are not already listed on the FIDE ratings site, do you want to be ENG or somewhere else? Presumably you would default to the country of residence. If it's not ENG, e2e4 don't ask whether you are a member of that Federation which is impossible to check anyway. The problem is then for the player's nominal home federation, as to what, if any, action they would take if a player turns up in the rating site under their designation that they had never heard of. I suppose there's reliance on players being honest about their nationality, sporting nationality or residence.

(edit) Chess Scotland want £ 18.50 for basic membership , will process it online and without appearing to ask any questions about eligibility.

[Roger de Coverly]

There are of course distinctions between being qualified to represent a country, being a member of a chess federation, legal nationality , dual nationality and country v principality. There are differences between EU states v non EU states and Wales v England and Scotland v England. Whilst this information can be ascertained with difficulty I would not bank on Mr Arbiter knowing all the pros and cons. i dont think the ECF have thought this through enough to be ready to go.

There is the other problem of a British (English) player gaining their first part rating in a foreign tournament. Such a tournament might or would demand membership or local equivalent from its own nationals but is unlikely to check or even ask foreign players. So the ECF's IRO will get a new name turning up on the list.

I get the idea that the ECF is spending resources and perhaps money acting like a debt collector, for the sake of saving 1 Euro per person a year. It might point to a payback in terms of a few new or renewed memberships. Or is there more to it?

[Sean Hewitt]

The problem is then for the player's nominal home federation, as to what, if any, action they would take if a player turns up in the rating site under their designation that they had never heard of. I suppose there's reliance on players being honest about their nationality, sporting nationality or residence.

Quite so. I occasionally get an email from xyz federation asking what association the new player has with their country. Usually it's by birth (although resident [and therefore playing] elsewhere) and the federation is happy with that. However, most new players seem to get created without any checks at all.

[Stewart Reuben]

Sean Hewitt >However, most new players seem to get created without any checks at all.<
Sean, you must be careful how you express yourself - unless you intended there to be a double-entendre.

Lat year an English 6 year old of Indian parentage played in a junior tournament in India. He did not get a FIDE Rating performance, alhough his partipation resulted in his being given a FIDE code as IND. Obviously this was a dastardly plot on the part of the AICF to extract memberships fees from him for the next 90 years.
Stewart Reuben

[harrylamb]

Take 13.1 To be included in the FRL, a player must be a member of a national chess Federation which is a member of FIDE.
Clearly it should read 'To be included in the FRL, a player must be a member of the national chess Federation to which they are assigned in the FIDE Rating List.'

The full regulation is

13.1 To be included in the FRL or FIDE Rapidplay Rating list, a player must be a member of a national chess Federation which is a member of FIDE. That is, the Federation must not be temporarily or permanently excluded from membership.

13.2 It is the responsibility of national Federations to inform FIDE if players should not be included in the FRL, FRRL.

13.3 Any player excluded from either rating list because he is unable to obtain membership of a national Federation, may apply to FIDE for special dispensation to be included.

So you are wrong Stewart. The situation is mentioned twice in both 13.1 and 13.3. So it is no accident. Under 13.3 you can be a member of any national Federation that will accept you. There is no mention anywhere in the rules about you having to be a member of the national chess Federation you are assigned to. And the reason there is no mention of it is that it was never intended.

I continue to be unhappy with the ECF over their handling of this matter. I have not seen any announcement from them before June 16. Fourteen days notice of a change of such fundamental nature is unreasonable. It is the holiday season and I was working in China when I heard about it. It gives me a problem that I only have a few days to sort out the problems the ECF are needlessly causing me. My French club is holding and international FIDE rated tournament in July. (All forumites are welcome to enter!) Details at
http://www.echecs.asso.fr/FicheTournoi.aspx?Ref=20302

I have promised to play to help my club players get FIDE ratings. This will off course cost me a reasonable amount of money most of which I am already committed to spend. I am a member of a national Federation as per the rules. I am clearly eligible to have a FIDE rating under 13.1 13.2 and 13.3. But the ECF seems to be threatening to wrongly deprive me of it and to make my trip to Dijon pointless. I will be writing to Adam Raoof and ask him not to have my name removed from the FIDE rating list as I meet the FIDE rating eligibility rules.

Harry Lamb

[Roger de Coverly]

I am a member of a national Federation as per the rules. I am clearly eligible to have a FIDE rating under 13.1 13.2 and 13.3.

I'm wondering what the French Federation will make of this. There are players who are affiliates under FFE rules who play all their chess in FFE events but have ENG as their FIDE tag. This could be a problem for them particularly since the FFE uses FIDE ratings instead of their own where a player potentially has both.

They even have a look up function where you can check the French club status of every international player
http://www.echecs.asso.fr/Joueurs.aspx

[Richard Bates]

Have the ECF actually determined if FIDE will accede to their request to have players deregistered? Since some people eg. Harry Lamb above, will clearly not be in breach of FIDE requirements to have a rating (the only federation who can determine otherwise is the French federation), is it not possible that the ECF will request, and FIDE will politely decline?

[harrylamb]

I am a member of a national Federation as per the rules. I am clearly eligible to have a FIDE rating under 13.1 13.2 and 13.3.

I'm wondering what the French Federation will make of this. There are players who are affiliates under FFE rules who play all their chess in FFE events but have ENG as their FIDE tag. This could be a problem for them particularly since the FFE uses FIDE ratings instead of their own where a player potentially has both.

I too am wondering what the FFE will make of this!

Incidentally Adam Raoof who opened this discussion has not replied since page two apart from two chat like comments about Max. So to Adam I say.

Hi Adam

Have you suddenly realised that your position is indefensible

A bientôt
Harry Lamb

[Stewart Reuben]

Harry Lamb is a special case. This is not because of the above nonsense, but because he has contributed over the years valuably to English chess.
The problem that the ECF is causing Harry and the FFE can be solved quite simply. He just has to join the ECF.
He says: I have not seen any announcement from them before June 16. That might possibly be true. But it would have been June 16 2002 or 2003 when the rule was announced that, for players to be listed on the FIDE rating List, they had to be members of the BCF, which later became the ECF. I think 8 or 9 years notice is perfectly adequate.
Forget about the FIDE Rules. I have often said it is irrelevant and unforceable. I just wanted to know whether people would like it changed to clarify the situation. The ECF have a rule and have had for the whole period of its existence. To claim, that our intention to enforce it is short notice, is disingenuous.

Oh, by the way. 13.3 is supposed to refer to a player who would then appear under the FIDE flag, rather than a specific federation.
Stewart Reuben

[Richard Bates]

Leaving aside the "nonsense" I just have one question. If a player leaves the game for several years without being a member of the ECF, and gets "deregistered" as a result, and then returns subsequently, will they have to pay one year's membership to "reactivate" their rating or will they have to backdate several years' worth of 'unpaid' membership fees?

[Adam Raoof]

Leaving aside the "nonsense" I just have one question. If a player leaves the game for several years without being a member of the ECF, and gets "deregistered" as a result, and then returns subsequently, will they have to pay one year's membership to "reactivate" their rating or will they have to backdate several years' worth of 'unpaid' membership fees?

A good question. There is active (playing in FIDE rated events), deregistered (as a result of non-membership), and inactive (as a result of non-activity). If they are inactive there is no issue to resolve.

If they are an active player then they must be an ECF member. If we check membership once a year (say June / July, so as not to disrupt the 4NCL registration process), and discover that a player has been active that year but not been a member we'll expect them to join, and to make up the gaps in their membership. If they don't join, they become deregistered. This makes their FIDE rating inactive and has consequences, but preserves their rating history.

We'll also be contacting the organisers and reminding them of their duty to ensure that all ENG players are current members when they enter tournaments, but to be fair events make it quite clear that you have to be a member of the ECF to play if you are ENG. However I feel that the responsibility has to ultimately lie with the individual to ensure they keep their membership current. The action we are taking does encourage that responsibility.

In the future if someone becomes deregistered (active, but not a member) and wants to be reregistered, then all they have to do is (re)join the ECF. In that circumstance it seems reasonable that if someone has been active, does not pay their membership and becomes deregistered as a result, we would expect them to pay the outstanding membership, and become a current member, but not to pay the 'backdated' fees (the intervening time that has elapsed between deregistration and rejoining the ECF) - as there will be none to pay.

Currently we have a special situation, where there are a number of players who are not members but who have been active in FIDE rated events. We will not be expecting them to pay backdated memberships, but we do expect them to join the ECF by July 1st.

If you are not a member of the ECF and want to maintain your active FIDE rating, please ring the ECF Office (Tel: 01424 775222 ) and join before the end of June. Support the ECF, and help us develop chess in England for everyone's benefit.

[Roger de Coverly]

f you are not a member of the ECF and want to maintain your active FIDE rating, please ring the ECF Office (Tel: 01424 775222 ) and join before the end of June. Support the ECF, and help us develop chess in England for everyone's benefit.

The message is though, that if you become an ex-pat or even move to Wales, Scotland or Ireland, is that the ECF will expect you to become both a member of the local Federation and retain your membership of the ECF.

Is this a message that you should avoid, if possible, becoming ENG on the FIDE list in the first place?