Exhausted Tie Breaks

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MartinCarpenter
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Exhausted Tie Breaks

Post by MartinCarpenter » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:13 am

2 teams have finished joint in the final relegation place in the Yorkshire league top division this year.

7 match points each, 37.5 game point. 4-4 draw in their individual match.

That (I believe) exhausts all of the leagues 'official' tie breaks. Has anyone got any ideas what else might make any sense?

One team did go +3,=1,-7 and the other +2,=3,-6 but I've no idea which of those is 'better'. Coin toss?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Exhausted Tie Breaks

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:17 am

MartinCarpenter wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:13 am
That (I believe) exhausts all of the leagues 'official' tie breaks. Has anyone got any ideas what else might make any sense?
Isn't there a weighting system where you score the opposition match total if you beat them, half their match total if you drew and nothing if you lost? So it breaks ties on results against the better performing teams.

Ian Thompson
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Re: Exhausted Tie Breaks

Post by Ian Thompson » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:29 am

MartinCarpenter wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:13 am
Has anyone got any ideas what else might make any sense?
I'd rule out anything based on past performance in the league because you could work out who was going to win before selecting the method. That leaves two options that I can think of - a playoff match or random selection.

NickFaulks
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Re: Exhausted Tie Breaks

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:20 am

Ian Thompson wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:29 am
I'd rule out anything based on past performance in the league because you could work out who was going to win before selecting the method. That leaves two options that I can think of - a playoff match or random selection.
Absolutely right. When the regulations fail to produce a result, I think a coin toss is the only method not open to criticism.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Exhausted Tie Breaks

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:12 pm

This is an extremely complex situation. For that reason I intend to ask Carl to lock this thread. At present it concerns solely the teams concerned and the principal officers of the YCA, excepting of course the one who cannot get involved.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Exhausted Tie Breaks

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:40 pm

MartinCarpenter wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:13 am

That (I believe) exhausts all of the leagues 'official' tie breaks. Has anyone got any ideas what else might make any sense?
There's an exhaustive list contained in
https://www.fide.com/FIDE/handbook/Stan ... _venue.pdf

However it says
11.5. Tie-break system 11.5.1.The tie-break system shall be decided in advance and announced prior to the start of the tournament. The arbiter should be ready to clearly clarify the calculations rules of tie-break system to the children and spectators. If all tie-breaks fail, the tie shall be broken by drawing of lots.
In the absence of a pre-announced rule that works, you have drawing of lots or perhaps if both teams agree, a play off match. If you are looking for an excuse to change division sizes, the tie gives you one, implemented by either relegating both teams or neither of them.

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Adam Raoof
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Re: Exhausted Tie Breaks

Post by Adam Raoof » Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:54 pm

has anyone asked the teams eligible for promotion whether they actually want to move up to the First Division?

Paul Cooksey
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Re: Exhausted Tie Breaks

Post by Paul Cooksey » Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:56 pm

maybe they have the same situation as the Berks league where everyone is desperate to be relegated :-)

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Exhausted Tie Breaks

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:20 pm

At the risk of repeating myself this complex matter is being discussed with those it effects to find a resolution. It does not concern anybody who has contributed to this thread.

EDIT - including the topic starter!
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Carl Hibbard
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Re: Exhausted Tie Breaks

Post by Carl Hibbard » Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:45 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:20 pm
At the risk of repeating myself this complex matter is being discussed with those it effects to find a resolution. It does not concern anybody who has contributed to this thread.

EDIT - including the topic starter!
Should there even be a thread in that case????
Cheers
Carl Hibbard

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Exhausted Tie Breaks

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Sat May 04, 2019 12:23 pm

Obviously this thread has now been re-opened. It was locked at my request and I'm disappointed to hear that Carl has received some grief about this.

Taking the substantive point first, the Yorkshire league rules state that if a dead heat occurs (game points are the first qualifier, followed by the result of the individual match - it has chopped and changed between the two over the years) the Principal Officers will consult with the teams affected to agree a suitable tie break. As my club is one of those affected I could not get involved directly so had to contact the YCA President (who does not use email) to set this in motion. The teams involved have now agreed a play off. They have also agreed a mechanism to be used if this second match is drawn, I am NOT divulging it on a public forum at this stage.

The general question of what should happen in the event of a dead heat is a valid one and a legitimate topic for discussion. The same thing applies when a dispute occurs in a match. However I don't think it is right for a topic to be immediately started on a forum with no regard for the teams involved or those who have the job of sorting it out. When a decision is reach and the teams have had an opportunity to consult their players about the outcome - then it can go in the public domain to be picked over by gossips and armchair arbiters with half the facts,
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MartinCarpenter
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Re: Exhausted Tie Breaks

Post by MartinCarpenter » Sat May 04, 2019 2:32 pm

I'm slightly surprised anyone bothered Carl about this, yes. I certainly didn't.

Rather surprised you reacted so strongly though - both the league result and tie breaks are obviously very much in the public domain and so its a thoroughly natural thing to note and speculate on.

I'm impressed you've all found the enthusiasm for a play off. Hope it goes well.

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Re: Exhausted Tie Breaks

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Sat May 04, 2019 2:49 pm

It's a very reasonable subject for discussion, as is any dispute where a difficult call has to be made.

My concern was that any discussion might prejudice any decisions made between the two teams. Also, at the time the thread was started I had not yet been able to contact Jim Burnett to set the process in motion. There were a few other low level concerns but these have now been sorted.
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AustinElliott
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Re: Exhausted Tie Breaks

Post by AustinElliott » Sat May 04, 2019 5:13 pm

There is, as older forum-ites may recall, a famous chess precedent for breaking a tie with a game of chance.

Of course, the feeling that that was rather unsatisfactory may ultimately have helped give us the current multi-stage rapid playoffs... Which in their turn now give us the decisive rapid-games-tied Armageddon game... which (one has the sense) almost no fan finds terribly satisfactory when it gets that far, though TBF the players seem to accept it.

So... whatever scheme you come up with, there will always be problems. Glad to hear the two clubs/teams in this case have mutually agreed how to settle things.

Leonard Barden
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Re: Exhausted Tie Breaks

Post by Leonard Barden » Sat May 04, 2019 5:51 pm

AustinElliott wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 5:13 pm
the current multi-stage rapid playoffs... Which in their turn now give us the decisive rapid-games-tied Armageddon game... which (one has the sense) almost no fan finds terribly satisfactory when it gets that far, though TBF the players seem to accept it.

Altibox Norway next month will take it much further.

Main game all moves in two hours, no increment, no draws before 30, 10 secs increment from 41.

If drawn, immediate Armageddon, same colours as in main game, White 10 mins, Black 7 mins, 3 secs increment from 61. Armageddons will start simultaneously when all classical games finished.

Main game decisive 2-0, main game drawn then 1.5-0.5. Thus zero draws in the entire tournament.

Should be lively but also quite messy, since at the same time Carlsen will be trying to get past 2882/2889 for a new world record under traditional scoring, as I discuss in https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/ ... rld-record

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