Change to Fines for Non-Members ?

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
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John Upham
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Change to Fines for Non-Members ?

Post by John Upham » Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:25 am

The Treasurer of the Berkshire Chess Association informed me today of the invoice received from the ECF in respect of fines for non-membership.

It would appear that regardless of the number of half games played by a non ECF member that the fine to the organisation making the grading return is

£16 for an adult

and

£5 for a junior

Is this a change of policy?

Maybe it is too time consuming to discover how many half-games were played even though this is contained in the grading return ?

My take on this (if it is indeed a change of policy) is that the incentive for clubs to encourage membership is reduced.

As a club membership secretary I try my level best to encourage membership of the ECF. If the fine is capped at £16 or £5 then I'm not sure if I need to bother in the future.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Change to Fines for Non-Members ?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:30 am

John Upham wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:25 am
Is this a change of policy?
This was announced at least a year ago.

The cost is per League played in rather than per player.

John Upham
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Re: Change to Fines for Non-Members ?

Post by John Upham » Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:42 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:30 am
John Upham wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:25 am
Is this a change of policy?
This was announced at least a year ago.

The cost is per League played in rather than per player.

Thanks Roger : I must have missed it.

I guess it is much easier to administer for the ECF at some cost in lost revenue.
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Reg Clucas
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Re: Change to Fines for Non-Members ?

Post by Reg Clucas » Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:52 pm

I believe the £16 is not a fixed fee, but is the Bronze membership fee for the year in which the games were played. However this does not confer Bronze membership on the individual(s) affected - as Roger says, the fee applies to each league or organisation in which games were played rather than to the player. The '3 free games per non-member per League' rule was introduced at the same time.

Angus French
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Re: Change to Fines for Non-Members ?

Post by Angus French » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:52 pm

John Upham wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:25 am
As a club membership secretary I try my level best to encourage membership of the ECF. If the fine is capped at £16 or £5 (in the case of a junior) then I'm not sure if I need to bother in the future.
Do you mean that you would just pass the fine on to the player at the end of the season, confident that it won't be more than £16/£5 (the current charges for Bronze membership)? If yes, I can see a couple of potential pitfalls:
- the player may have moved on and/or be reluctant or slow to pay the fine; and,
- the fines apply per event and if a non-member plays more than three games in each of two or more events, there will be multiple fines against the same player - e.g. a total fine for the player of £32 rather than £16. (I don't like this and I think it goes against the ethos of the ECF.)

John Upham
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Re: Change to Fines for Non-Members ?

Post by John Upham » Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:09 pm

Angus French wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:52 pm
John Upham wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:25 am
As a club membership secretary I try my level best to encourage membership of the ECF. If the fine is capped at £16 or £5 (in the case of a junior) then I'm not sure if I need to bother in the future.
Do you mean that you would just pass the fine on to the player at the end of the season, confident that it won't be more than £16/£5 (the current charges for Bronze membership)? If yes, I can see a couple of potential pitfalls:
- the player may have moved on and/or be reluctant or slow to pay the fine; and,
- the fines apply per event and if a non-member plays more than three games in each of two or more events, there will be multiple fines against the same player - e.g. a total fine for the player of £32 rather than £16. (I don't like this and I think it goes against the ethos of the ECF.)
In the past I have pro-actively chased players as soon as they have played four gradeable (?) games for club to complete their ECF membership and advised captains not to select them any further.

I have wanted to advise captains not to select a player at the start of the season unless they are an ECF member but has proved unworkable.

There is a club in the Berkshire League who routinely has ZERO of its players as members and the captain claws back the fines from the College.
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Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Change to Fines for Non-Members ?

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:07 pm

The new system is much better as it does away with the `tax` element of the old system in that you're no longer incurring a £2.50 charge every time a non member plays; allowing you to give a new player a go or use a one off reserve for free.

This isn't really one for a public forum but I'm wondering if the ECF is in the process of issuing invoices for leagues or if these have already been sent. I assumed they would send them to the `treasurer` as specified in the grading file header but I might be (badly) mistaken.
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NickFaulks
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Re: Change to Fines for Non-Members ?

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:12 pm

John Upham wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:09 pm
There is a club in the Berkshire League who routinely has ZERO of its players as members and the captain claws back the fines from the College.
You can see why they go on to be Cabinet ministers.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Change to Fines for Non-Members ?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:55 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:07 pm
but I'm wondering if the ECF is in the process of issuing invoices for leagues or if these have already been sent.
That's why the issue has surfaced.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Change to Fines for Non-Members ?

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:57 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:55 pm
Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:07 pm
but I'm wondering if the ECF is in the process of issuing invoices for leagues or if these have already been sent.
That's why the issue has surfaced.
I know that Roger. My point is that I'm expecting a couple of invoices to come to me so either they haven't been issued yet or they've gone to the wrong person. However I'm in the process of chasing.
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Paul Buswell
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Re: Change to Fines for Non-Members ?

Post by Paul Buswell » Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:35 pm

The ECF office is in process of issuing said invoices and should finish the bulk of them this week, d.v.

Nick Grey
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Re: Change to Fines for Non-Members ?

Post by Nick Grey » Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:04 pm

I hope they have got the duplicate Surrey league games out of the data. The leagues pass onto clubs with this years fees.
Some clubs may not pass on. That is when may not pay until June and also when clubs own process is not compulsory registration.
Let alone our league rules.
Fines/taxes is irrelevant. Can you see small claims courts dealing with this?

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Change to Fines for Non-Members ?

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:48 pm

Paul Buswell wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:35 pm
The ECF office is in process of issuing said invoices and should finish the bulk of them this week, d.v.
Thanks Paul. I have emailed Andrew Walker as well. I'm mainly trying to ensure that the local ones come to me to prevent them going into a black hole elsewhere.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

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