Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Keith Arkell
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Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Keith Arkell » Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:21 pm

I guess I'll get reprimanded for daring to ask this, given what happened when I dared to question the layout of the ECF site, but as there were no prizes in the Grand Prix concluding in June 2019, nor even trophies if you happened to be graded over 180, is it too much to ask the ECF to publish the final standings, given that it is only prestige we were playing for?

As of now all we are offered is the standings at the end of May.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:49 am

I don't think it's as bad as you think. Let me explain why, based on my experience when I was in charge.

In order to publish the final standings, you can do one of two things:
- Publish the GP standings immediately after the July grading list has been published
- Publish the GP standings immediately after the August grading list has been published

The advantage of doing it in July is that it looks efficient. The disadvantage is that you risk awarding prizes before people have corrected erroneous results, and thus you award prizes to the wrong people.

As I've said in other threads, it was known that the July list missed events out even when it was published in July, and Roger - I think - observed over 3000 corrections when the revised grades were published. I don't know how many wrong or missing results that translates to. Against this information, it makes perfect sense not to publish the Grand Prix standings at that point and wait until the August list. The Grand Prix standings are generated directly from the grading system, so the publication of grading lists has to come first.

One of the other things that comes directly from the grading system is a masterlist, used by graders and tournament organisers to help identify people. That is normally published on the ECF grading website in January, July and August, with each grading list that comes. Graders are also made aware of where they can find monthly updates. As I write this, there is no evidence that the August masterlist has been published - there is no email in my inbox, and it isn't available for download from the ECF grading website.

The grading list was published on the website on 31st August. It's a reasonable question as to why the masterlist and GP standings haven't been generated and published in the five days since, but I'm sure you'll agree that this is perhaps less of a crime than it apparently taking over two months. I'm waiting for the masterlist myself because I use its information to design the team submission form for the Junior 4NCL, but planned on waiting until the weekend before chasing it up.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:40 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:49 am
As I've said in other threads, it was known that the July list missed events out even when it was published in July
If result reporting is so poor that Grand Prix positions cannot reliably be reported in near real time then monthly rating is a non-starter until these problems can be sorted out. It's tournament organisers who wanted monthly lists, let them help sort out the reporting problems.

There is, or was,a rule which said that late reported results weren't included in the Grand Prix. It appears this has been dropped.

The notion of having a Grand Prix style competition for British Championship qualification has been dropped. Unsurprising if it isn't known who qualified until a month after the event itself had finished.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:12 am

"There is, or was,a rule which said that late reported results weren't included in the Grand Prix. It appears this has been dropped. "

If it has been dropped, it is an error. You MUST have a deadline and stick to it.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:15 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:40 am
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:49 am
As I've said in other threads, it was known that the July list missed events out even when it was published in July
If result reporting is so poor that Grand Prix positions cannot reliably be reported in near real time then monthly rating is a non-starter until these problems can be sorted out. It's tournament organisers who wanted monthly lists, let them help sort out the reporting problems.
Indeed, the IT infrastructure surrounding grading is very much outdated. In terms of tournaments not being graded, then my point about organisers uploading their own results to the server rather than emailing Matthew is the solution. I gather the new IT will be designed with that in mind. In terms of wrong results, people don't look up their results during the middle of a rating period, they look after a grading list has been published. If you published annually, six-monthly, monthly or even weekly, that'd still be the case.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:16 am

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:12 am
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:40 am
There is, or was,a rule which said that late reported results weren't included in the Grand Prix. It appears this has been dropped.
If it has been dropped, it is an error. You MUST have a deadline and stick to it.
But this was the point - the results *were* reported in time. They just sat in Matthew's inbox and were never processed.

Ian Thompson
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Ian Thompson » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:23 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:40 am
There is, or was,a rule which said that late reported results weren't included in the Grand Prix. It appears this has been dropped.
Where's the evidence for this?

There might well be a problem with the rules in that the deadline for reporting results for the Grand Prix is 1 month after the event took place while the deadline for submitting results for grading is 14 July. Clearly, an event taking place towards the end of June can meet the 1 month deadline, but miss the 14 July deadline and not be in the July grading list.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:06 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:23 am

Where's the evidence for this?
If the calculations use the entire grading data, they are going to be blind to when the data was submitted. To enforce the submission date would require using a subset of grading data with late submitted results excluded.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:02 pm

"But this was the point - the results *were* reported in time. They just sat in Matthew's inbox and were never processed."

Thanks for that!

Nick Grey
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Nick Grey » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:51 pm

Any reason why not award trophies even on a provisional basis. Not as if any sponsorship prize money. Is there likely to be any late changes in the winners? Just as well most leagues do not usually use grading data to decide trophies.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:27 am

Nick Grey wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:51 pm
Any reason why not award trophies even on a provisional basis. Not as if any sponsorship prize money. Is there likely to be any late changes in the winners? Just as well most leagues do not usually use grading data to decide trophies.
Of course it's unlikely, but if it happens there'll be much egg-on-face and public accusations of the ECF incompetence. So I can understand why it might be better to wait.

Keith Arkell
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Keith Arkell » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:20 pm

Ironically the final positions have now been published ( on 11.9) and I believe there has been a calculating error! I'm sending an appeal to the Office...

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:29 pm

Keith Arkell wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:20 pm
Ironically the final positions have now been published ( on 11.9) and I believe there has been a calculating error! I'm sending an appeal to the Office...
There's no obvious link on the ECF's site. A Google search came up with
https://www.englishchess.org.uk/ecf-grand-prix/

It has the winner as Yichen Han with 664 points followed by Keith on 663.

I was 13th in the under 180, despite helping Keith's points total by losing to him twice and drawing with Yichen.

Keith Arkell
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Keith Arkell » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:58 pm

Thanks for your help there, Roger. I think you may have helped me to win a trophy :wink:

I may as well reproduce my score here. Basically you take your percentage, minus fractions, and add the number of games played in the event:

I believe that my total should be 675. Here is the break-down:

25/1/19 Simon Bartlett Memorial 5/5 ; GP score 100+5 = 105

17/5/19 Frome Open 5/5 ; GP score 100+5 = 105

2/9/18 DCCA Congress, Paignton 6.5/7 ; GP score 92+7 = 99

15/2/19 Bristol Winter Open 4.5/5 ; GP score 90+5 = 95

31/5/19 EACU 2nd FIDE rated Congress 4.5/5 ; GP score 90+5 = 95

28/9/18 20th 4NCL Congress Open 4.5/5 ; GP score 90+5 = 95

9/12/18 London Classic Open 6.5/9 ; GP score 72+9 = 81

Total: 675

On top of this I have the 21st 4NCL Congress from 18/1/2019 in which I scored 4/5, which would give me 80+5 = 85, bringing my GP score to 679. I have excluded it from the above calculations though, because my score includes a half point bye and I am a bit uncertain what effect that might have on my GP score for that event.

Nigel White
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Nigel White » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:24 pm

But the rules on the Grand Prix web page say default wins are not counted, so the 20th 4NCL would only score 87 +4 = 91, I think.

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