Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Keith Arkell
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Keith Arkell » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:02 am

It's perhaps a little ambiguous, because it also says 'percentage score in the event', and my score at the event [ the 20th 4NCL Open] is still 4.5/5. Perhaps we are looking at 90 + 4?

If you are right that 'percentage score in the event' doesn't count byes and defaults then my 'percent score in the event' at the 21st 4NCL Open is 3.5/4 = 87 + 4 = 91. And I didn't even count that event.

So using your interpretation, Nigel, I knock 4 points off the 20th 4NCL total - ie reduce from 95 to 91, but gain 10 by replacing the London Classic 81 with the 4NCL 21st Open 91.

And in anycase, using the worst possible interpretation of the rules my score cannot be lower than 671, which is 6 more than I need to be declared the GP winner.

Richard Bates
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Richard Bates » Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:47 am

If you include both tournaments with byes/defaults you get to 681. If you then exclude Paignton and include London classic you get to 663.

If you look at the “Events Received” page, Paignton, for some reason, is not shown as a Congress, but as a “League etc”. I would hazard a guess that this is the source of the problem...

(There is also the possibility that Paignton missed the cutoff for submission for inclusion in the GP, but even then should presumably be shown as a Congress, so seems unlikely that this is the issue, unless a double error has been made)

Richard Bates
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Richard Bates » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:02 am

Off topic but on the basis that the GP will continue@, and anticipating that there may be some prizes for it at some future date, I personally believe the rules should be tweaked in the over 180 section to at least limit the number of results that can be counted from “non Open” events. At the moment Juniors can rack up enormous scores from UK challenge and other junior events, and the monthly Hampstead U2200 events are also plentiful sources of significant GP points. It’s OK that inclusion of some of these events may be OK to give people a “leg up” to compete, but I don’t think it is fair to be able to practically win the thing on the back of them.

Leonard Barden
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Leonard Barden » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:01 am

In the long ago days when I administered the Grand Prix and there was actually serious money to be won, I introduced a rule that a certain percentage of points in the open section had to be won in elite events, defined by the presence of a minimum £500 prize money for open competition and/or a minimum stated number of highly rated players.

As is well known, the Grand Prix right from its inception in the mid-1970s played an important role in developing our top GMs and IMs and in England's emergence as a strong chess nation.

The present system as described above by Keith and Richard (no cash prizes in the open, anti elite rules) seems to me absurd and negative for the future of English chess and stimulating new talent.




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Alex Holowczak
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:11 am

Leonard Barden wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:01 am
The present system as described above by Keith and Richard (no cash prizes in the open, anti elite rules) seems to me absurd and negative for the future of English chess and stimulating new talent.
Given that the event has no sponsorship, the choice is to either run it on the current basis with no cash prize, or not run it at all. The idea that there should be sponsorship and prize money is hardly a revolutionary thought that has never occurred to anybody before - as ever, it is easy to say that something should have prize money when you don't have to worry about where the funding is coming from to pay for it.

The whole structure of the Grand Prix rules is not designed to reward quality, it is designed to reward frequency of play. If you wanted it to measure quality, then you wouldn't have a points system where the top x tournament results count, because that rewards playing as often as you can, and counting the top x results, which means they could be outliers of your performance. Clearly that's not the case in Keith's portfolio of results, but I'm sure that it's true for others in other sections. Given that it is an amateur competition these days in that there is no prize money, then I think a structure that rewards frequency of play isn't completely unreasonable. I don't think the rules have been changed for at least the last decade regarding the Open, even when it did have sponsorship, so this is not a new development.

In terms of changing to the rules, I think it has to be lived with in the short-term. The grading system does the calculation, and there is currently no programmer, so any changes to the calculation of points has no one to program them in. Isn't working in a Federation that often relies on volunteers for its key services fun?

It doesn't make much sense economically to spend money on that given we're moving to a new system shortly anyway; they might as well be developed straight into the new system.

David Sedgwick
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by David Sedgwick » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:32 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:11 am
In terms of changing to the rules, I think it has to be lived with in the short-term. The grading system does the calculation, and there is currently no programmer, so any changes to the calculation of points has no one to program them in.
Having publicly repudiated the maxim "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", you now seem to be advocating "If it is broke, don't fix it if you can't".

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:11 am
Given that the event has no sponsorship, the choice is to either run it on the current basis with no cash prize, or not run it at all.
Having read all your comments on this thread and in particular the one which I have quoted above, it seems to me that the option which I have emboldened is the best one.

Keith, I don't understand why you give a toss whether or not you have won this seemingly pointless Grand Prix. I would be interested if you would explain why it matters to you.
Last edited by David Sedgwick on Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Andrew Walker
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Andrew Walker » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:19 pm

QUOTE --- There's no obvious link on the ECF's site. A Google search came up with https://www.englishchess.org.uk/ecf-grand-prix/ --- UNQUOTE
Roger - I really do try my best, and have done so for the past ten years. Is this link, from the very front page of the website, not obvious enough?

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Keith Arkell
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Keith Arkell » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:32 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:32 am
Keith, I don't understand why you give a toss whether or not you have won this seemingly pointless Grand Prix. I would be interested if you would explain why it matters to you.


Hi David,

It matters to me because I feel that if they are going to include my name on their leaderboard then that should be done fairly.

However pointless the Grand Prix is or is not doesn't affect the emotion I feel when I have been done an injustice.

And, because I coach quite a bit these days it does me no harm to be the winner of the English Grand Prix.

It looks likely that Richard Bates has located the source of the problem. The chap who was in charge of Paignton last year ( and only last year, thank goodness) is, unfortunately, the same chap I referred to ( anonymously) in the forum thread about handshakes. I don't think I need to add any more, except to say that it doesn't surprise me that the result was sent in after the deadline.

Basically I am the winner of the Grand Prix through merit - through my chess playing - and I won't be a happy bunny if someone with a grudge against me succeeds in sabotaging that by a late tournament report.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:43 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:32 am
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:11 am
In terms of changing to the rules, I think it has to be lived with in the short-term. The grading system does the calculation, and there is currently no programmer, so any changes to the calculation of points has no one to program them in.
Having publicly repudiated the maxim "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", you now seem to be advocating "if it is broke, don't fix it if you can't".
Not at all, I don't think it is broke. If the aim of the competition is to reward frequency of play in some way, then that's fine if that's what it is setting out to achieve. There's obviously a strength element to it too, given Keith is, depending on the result of this kerfuffle, 1st or 2nd in it.

Another pragmatic point that occurs to me is that given the 2019/20 season is already underway, the earliest time any rules could be amended is 2020/21. To some extent, this means my original point falls away, since by then the new system will be in place and so the coding could be done.
David Sedgwick wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:32 am
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:11 am
Given that the event has no sponsorship, the choice is to either run it on the current basis with no cash prize, or not run it at all.
Having read all your comments on this thread and in particular the one which I have quoted above, it seems to me that the option which I have emboldened is the best one.

Keith, I don't understand why you give a toss whether or not you have won this seemingly pointless Grand Prix. I would be interested if you would explain why it matters to you.
There is quite a lot of discussion on Facebook about the Grand Prix, especially in the grade-restrictions, with some of the congress regulars being very interested. It seems to be very keenly sought after amongst them, notwithstanding the fact that the prize is a trophy. They certainly don't seem to think it is pointless. This seemingly isn't true for the Open either, given Keith's postings here.

Keith Arkell
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Keith Arkell » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:09 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:43 pm
There is quite a lot of discussion on Facebook about the Grand Prix, especially in the grade-restrictions, with some of the congress regulars being very interested. It seems to be very keenly sought after amongst them, notwithstanding the fact that the prize is a trophy. They certainly don't seem to think it is pointless. This seemingly isn't true for the Open either, given Keith's postings here.
This is very simple to answer: If you want to include my name in these events then use it fairly.

Stewart Reuben
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Stewart Reuben » Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:40 am

Can anybody tell me why an ostensibly sane orgnisation, the Engish Chess Federation of which I am a member, would run a GRAND PRIX with no grand prize?
It should have been killed off years ago. Retaining it is a bit like the Monte Python Dead Parrot Sketch.

Having buried it, then, if you wanted to, design a new event with new rules that meet some of Alex's objectives and is coherent without too much work involved.
As Leonard wrote earlier, the Grand Prix used to be very valuabe and worthy of business sponsorship. When it became the Tradewise Grand Prix it damaged the reputation of the sponsor rather than enhanced it.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:49 pm

Stewart Reuben wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:40 am
When it became the Tradewise Grand Prix it damaged the reputation of the sponsor rather than enhanced it.
Que?

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JustinHorton
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by JustinHorton » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:26 pm

¿Qué?
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Nick Grey
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by Nick Grey » Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:17 pm

I'm with Keith on this. He won.
ECF should not waste time or resources. Seems a strange way to get entries into an end of year national event too.

NickFaulks
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Re: Results of the ECF 2018/9 Grand Prix

Post by NickFaulks » Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:37 pm

Nick Grey wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:17 pm
ECF should not waste time or resources.
If the calculations for Keith were wrong, how do we know those for his rival weren't too?

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