4NCL Online

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
Roger de Coverly
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Re: 4NCL Online

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu May 14, 2020 9:38 am

There's a new statement about banned players at the 4NCL website.

Given that a ban by lichess provoked a withdrawal by a division 1 team, I feel the tone of the comments is self congratulatory. The team withdrawal isn't mentioned, nor are what sanctions, if any, are applied to team results when players are excluded.

(edit lichess not chess.com - that was the Briitsh Blitz)
Last edited by Roger de Coverly on Thu May 14, 2020 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

Neil Graham
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Re: 4NCL Online

Post by Neil Graham » Thu May 14, 2020 10:37 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 9:38 am
There's a new statement about banned players at the 4NCL website.

Given that a ban by chess.com provoked a withdrawal by a division 1 team, I feel the tone of the comments is self congratulatory. The team withdrawal isn't mentioned, nor are what sanctions, if any, are applied to team results when players are excluded.
Lichess - not chess.com?

David Robertson
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Re: 4NCL Online

Post by David Robertson » Thu May 14, 2020 3:12 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 9:38 am
There's a new statement about banned players at the 4NCL website
Indeed there is.

And at risk of taking us way, way, off-topic, I draw general attention to the delightful paragraphs at the end of the statement. One of my players (ie Spirit of Atticus) was on the receiving end of collegiate goodsportsmanship in a recent game, probably the incident referred to in the first example. It's so uplifting when things like this happen - there's far more unmarked generosity out there than malice.

The evil that men do lives after them
The good is oft interred with their bones


PS if you visit the 4NCL webpage, check the 'tweet' sidebar. Under 'Liverpool City Council', you find a video clip by a local Councillor. Absolutely no idea at all what it's doing there, but my wife, Laura, is hugely amused - because it's her!

John McKenna
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Re: 4NCL Online

Post by John McKenna » Thu May 14, 2020 3:24 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 3:20 pm

Really I don't want to make everything about myself, but my experience does serve as a pretty good example...
<ripple of applause and sound of flashbulbs popping>

That could be the start of an acceptance speech at the Oscars.

While it is undoubtedly the case that Justin's performances at online theatres in this genre have rivalled those of Henry Fonda in The Wrong Man and Twelve Angry Men I believe that he is fated to have to wait until he has mellowed - as Fonda did with On Golden Pond - to really know how to act instead of just grandstanding.

Edit - with apologies to the Prof for so rudely butting in after his sensational post, above.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

John Foley
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Re: 4NCL Online

Post by John Foley » Fri May 22, 2020 3:54 pm

The online meeting on Tuesday 26th May entitled Can Online Chess Overcome Cheating? seems timely bringing together some of the key components: sports regulation, playing platforms, statistical software, players, captains.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 4NCL Online

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri May 22, 2020 4:09 pm

John Foley wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 3:54 pm
The online meeting on Tuesday 26th May entitled Can Online Chess Overcome Cheating?
From the website
In this webinar, experts discuss the issues around cheating.

How is cheating detected?
Aren't they missing a question? Start with "What is cheating" or "What behaviour is classified as cheating".

Some of the online servers appear to have curious ideas on this such as "playing good moves whilst in possession of a low rating".

Mick Norris
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Re: 4NCL Online

Post by Mick Norris » Fri May 22, 2020 4:28 pm

In this webinar, experts discuss the issues around cheating.

How is cheating detected?
How transparent must the process be?
How can detection be automated?
What is sufficient evidence of computer assistance?
What behaviour is suspicious?
What to do if you suspect your opponent of cheating?
What are the safeguards against false accusations?
What are the appeal processes?
What if someone is not satisfied with the appeal outcome?
What if there is not an appeal process?
What sort of enforcement measures are fair?
Does online chess need an ombudsman?
Looks like a pretty good list
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

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Adam Raoof
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Re: 4NCL Online

Post by Adam Raoof » Fri May 22, 2020 4:31 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:28 pm
In this webinar, experts discuss the issues around cheating.
I have signed up ;-)
Adam Raoof IA, IO
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Mick Norris
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Re: 4NCL Online

Post by Mick Norris » Fri May 22, 2020 5:06 pm

Let us know how it goes please Adam
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

David Sedgwick
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Re: 4NCL Online

Post by David Sedgwick » Sat May 23, 2020 8:16 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:28 pm
In this webinar, experts discuss the issues around cheating.
Adam Raoof wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:31 pm
I have signed up ;-)
So have I.

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Adam Raoof
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Re: 4NCL Online

Post by Adam Raoof » Sat May 23, 2020 8:21 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:16 pm
Mick Norris wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:28 pm
In this webinar, experts discuss the issues around cheating.
Adam Raoof wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:31 pm
I have signed up ;-)
So have I.
I signed up because you were down as one of the speakers ;-)
Adam Raoof IA, IO
Chessable - http://www.chessable.com
-Tell your friends about the Chess England Online Home Page - https://bit.ly/chessenglandonline
Don’t stop playing chess!

Angus French
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Re: 4NCL Online

Post by Angus French » Sat May 23, 2020 9:31 pm

Is there a list of speakers? I only saw:
ChessTech listing wrote:Hosted by Stefan Löffler, Editor, ChessTech

Part One: One-on-one interviews with leading figures to cover a range of relevant aspects.
Salomėja Zaksaitė, FIDE Anti-Cheating Commission
Ken Regan, University at Buffalo, New York
Part Two: Questions and Answers from the audience.

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Adam Raoof
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Re: 4NCL Online

Post by Adam Raoof » Sat May 23, 2020 10:07 pm

Angus French wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 9:31 pm
Is there a list of speakers? I only saw:
ChessTech listing wrote:Hosted by Stefan Löffler, Editor, ChessTech

Part One: One-on-one interviews with leading figures to cover a range of relevant aspects.
Salomėja Zaksaitė, FIDE Anti-Cheating Commission
Ken Regan, University at Buffalo, New York
Part Two: Questions and Answers from the audience.
I may have confused a list of attendees with a list of speakers, as I am now on the list ;-)
Adam Raoof IA, IO
Chessable - http://www.chessable.com
-Tell your friends about the Chess England Online Home Page - https://bit.ly/chessenglandonline
Don’t stop playing chess!

David Sedgwick
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Re: 4NCL Online

Post by David Sedgwick » Sun May 24, 2020 10:27 am

Angus French wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 9:31 pm
Is there a list of speakers? I only saw:
ChessTech listing wrote:Hosted by Stefan Löffler, Editor, ChessTech

Part One: One-on-one interviews with leading figures to cover a range of relevant aspects.
Salomėja Zaksaitė, FIDE Anti-Cheating Commission
Ken Regan, University at Buffalo, New York
Part Two: Questions and Answers from the audience.
As far as I know they are the only two speakers. I am certainly not speaking, although I may try to ask a question.

Edit: The link at https://www.tickettailor.com/events/chessplus/376220/ now lists a third confirmed speaker and a possible fourth speaker - from Lichess.

Li Wu
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Re: 4NCL Online

Post by Li Wu » Mon May 25, 2020 12:04 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:09 pm
Some of the online servers appear to have curious ideas on this such as "playing good moves whilst in possession of a low rating".
This is very good evidence if sample supports it- and in fact you can get rid of the second half of that sentence (even Carlsen blunders, and is cheating if he doesn't over a much larger sample). If a 1900 players make 4 blunders every 20 moves, and then we have has a string of games without a blunder, you can be as certain as can be of engine assistance (or consultation with better players).

The fact remains it's possible to brand people as cheats with a lower false positive rate than the criminal justice system based on moves alone.

The other point is valid though- it sucks that sites are silent on their methods or evidence discovered. I wonder if we can have something similar to expert witnesses- where the secret detection methods aren't revealed, but evidence can still be used- as it's very difficult to check outside of the inner workings of these sites.

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