ECF Membership

[Carl Hibbard]

Just felt curious that this man from the Staffordshire heartlands had somehow deserted his fellow kinsman for a shot with the big boys.

I could only ever play for Staffordshire to be honest and I don't really play now...

[Alex Holowczak]

I wasnt personally too bothered that the player appeared against `us`.

Riiiiiiight.

[LozCooper]

Roger, its the bigger teams who are `poaching` players from the minnows I suspect..
Certainly in the case I cited regarding `Lichfield Man` (stolen from lowly Staffordshire..) by Warwickshires big shots...
I wasnt personally too bothered that the player appeared against `us`. Just felt curious that this man from the Staffordshire heartlands had somehow deserted his fellow kinsman for a shot with the big boys.
There was no actual breach of the rules that I could complain about....thats why I`m suggesting some rule changes to tighten things up.
Nowadays, under the stewardship of some good Staffordshire captains, the Staffs county scene is much brighter...
I certainly wouldnt like to see small teams penalised any more than present...

You keep mentioning the Lichfield player who deserted his county but did he play for Staffordshire previously or was it a case of he lived in Warwickshire but played his club chess outside his county? As you won't clarify this it's hard to draw any conclusions

I was captain of lowly Staffordshire in the 1990s during which time we won the national county championship for the only time in our history so it's nice to be told "Nowadays, under the stewardship of some good Staffordshire captains, the Staffs county scene is much brighter..." Perhaps it might be prudent to have some knowledge of the subject you are discussing before firing off posts

[Mick Norris]

I am not aware of any instances of G Man opponents fielding ineligible players

When one of our U150 players went on to play for Lancs the same year in the U150 nationals I did find that the then national controller wasn't going to check, so I am not really sure what is the point of some of the rules

G Man don't want to change the county rules, Dave is not representative of opinion here on this

[David Pardoe]

Loz.. I`m sure under your lead that Staffs indeed did well. I wasnt trying to say that Staffs had struggled for the entire history of the BCF....nor particularly referring to there Open team. And they seemed to drift off the radar .. but so did MCCU county chess for a while. In fact County chess itself has been under a cloud to some degree..
Its been a question that people have asked..ie, how can we raise the level of interest.... Yes, how do you attract new blood...
Similarly GMan has had its moments..... it is currently going through a rebuilding phase..

The key point I`m making is that County chess, in my opinion, should be about local players playing for local areas..... I`d like to see more focus about that. Its how you define `local players` I guess.
As I said, our friend `Lichfield Man` is just an example to illustrate the point..without getting into personalities. He wasnt actually technically breaking any rules, as far as I know.

I`m speaking purely from my own viewpoint, as always...others do have views and are welcome to express them....

[Alan Walton]

Similarly GMan has had its moments..... it is currently going through a rebuilding phase

The problem with GMan as previously mentioned in the travelling aspect of the MCCU, it isn't really going through a rebuilding stage, when you are missing nearly 8 players over 190 from one club for the reason mentioned above, says there is fundamentally something wrong with the present environment they are playing in

If you notice when GMan had its moments when we reached 3 finals on the trot winning two of them, nearly half the players were from 3Cs, it just seems that there is no new "young blood" coming through at the top level, and this problem is effecting the majority of clubs within the area

Look at the last match they played Harry Lamb was on board 3, whereas the last year we won it he was on board 16, enough said

[Alex Holowczak]

Similarly GMan has had its moments..... it is currently going through a rebuilding phase

The problem with GMan as previously mentioned in the travelling aspect of the MCCU, it isn't really going through a rebuilding stage, when you are missing nearly 8 players over 190 from one club for the reason mentioned above, says there is fundamentally something wrong with the present environment they are playing in

If you notice when GMan had its moments when we reached 3 finals on the trot winning two of them, nearly half the players were from 3Cs, it just seems that there is no new "young blood" coming through at the top level, and this problem is effecting the majority of clubs within the area

Look at the last match they played Harry Lamb was on board 3, whereas the last year we won it he was on board 16, enough said

I don't think the "young blood coming through at the top level" is a problem that is confined to Greater Manchester, though.

I think the biggest challenge Greater Manchester faces (OK, apart from the obvious one), is that you have a high quantity of local congresses that players can enter, seemingly far more than other areas within the MCCU. E.g. Staffs/Worcs/Warks (an area centring on Birmingham) has maybe 2 rapidplays and 4 congresses all year. These relatively local events will be more appealing than a county match 50 miles away. I noticed in one of the Open matches where you defaulted boards, you were missing players who were playing in congresses on the same weekend (including your captain). It's not immediately obvious how you get around this problem.

[Alan Walton]

Alex,

You are correct that this is a problem, this is due to GMan being based in the North, and with the majority of congresses being run by NCCU members they don't care if these clash with MCCU matches, it is pretty obvious how to get around this is by GMan being allowed in the NCCU, and thus our county matches shouldn't really clash with the majority of congresses and thus release these players.

Congresses are always a more attractive proposition than county chess as you play 5 games a weekend rather than 1

BTW they didn't default boards because the lack of players, it was due to one whole car load being stuck in motorway traffic for over 2 hours, and thus had to turn around, using that to make the point you made isn't relevant, though you point is accurate about not having a big enough pool to pull from

[David Pardoe]

Alan, the travelling aspect for the MCCU has not changed significantly in over thirty years, as far as I know, except its probably got a bit easier for most GMan players, through making arrangements to play our qualifiers on more convenient neutral venues...
Even going to Syston for our National Qualifying Match was not a bad days outing...a pleasant 2 hour run over the Peak district...no need to even touch a motorway. ...great. And meanwhile, other things were going on....City played United at Wembley, to mention just one. Congresses no doubt were another attraction.
Yes, we didnt perhaps turn out our best possible team (on paper..), for various reasons. We`re open to any suggestions to improve matters....and encourage more local players. Our captain did a very good job that day getting out a full side....and we lost by the narrowest of margins.
And generally our `shared transport` arrangements have worked well (although travel is always a tricky point..).
What could we do to improve things.......
Should we play in the NCCU where they dont play any meaningful qualifying competitions...for the reasons I`ve mentioned.
Admittedly this has the added attraction of minimizing travel, and effectively that NCCU teams dont actually start playing til the Finals stages, by which time most counties have been eliminated..........
Yes, I agree that if GMan joined in this annual slogging match it could be interesting (for one day)....and that would be it for the unlucky loser....over and out in one session...certainly quick & easy....if thats what players want from county chess.
But it still leaves most of the other NCCU counties `out in the cold`...with no interest whatsoever in entering.
And yes, for you hopping over the garden fence to play in Bradford (West Yorkshire..) is, no doubt, very convenient.....fair game I suppose.
But I`m sure the powers that be are looking at these things.....various suggestions have been made.
And 3Cs I guess have put there focus on other things...major tournaments....4NCL, etc....

Other counties have there own sets of issues and problems....much can depend on the captain, and how much support he can muster.....

I return to my point about `local chess for local players` being an important ingredient........but some flexibilty will always apply.

[Alan Walton]

Alan, the travelling aspect for the MCCU has not changed significantly in over thirty years, as far as I know, except its probably got a bit easier for most GMan players, through making arrangements to play our qualifiers on more convenient neutral venues

Yes it has, in the past we played two games in Manchester, people then didn't mind the odd game in Birmingham area, currently playing all games at neutral venues always means you have to travel

Even going to Syston for our National Qualifying Match was not a bad days outing...a pleasant 2 hour run over the Peak district...no need to even touch a motorway. ...great. And meanwhile, other things were going on....City played United at Wembley, to mention just one. Congresses no doubt were another attraction.

This has always been the case, whichever team you play for, so I have never said this is the problem with myself representing GMan

And generally our `shared transport` arrangements have worked well (although travel is always a tricky point..).

Again, this has always been the case, in fact when I was younger and my dad was U175 captain we even used our own mini bus, and I think every county organises shared transport, and all do it well

Should we play in the NCCU where they dont play any meaningful qualifying competitions...for the reasons I`ve mentioned.
Admittedly this has the added attraction of minimizing travel, and effectively that NCCU teams dont actually start playing til the Finals stages, by which time most counties have been eliminated..........
Yes, I agree that if GMan joined in this annual slogging match it could be interesting (for one day)....and that would be it for the unlucky loser....over and out in one session...certainly quick & easy....if thats what players want from county chess.

If GMan entered this section it would then become meaningful, Lancs v Yorks v GMan should be an excellent competition, it sounds like you want the "easy" route through to the final stages through the MCCU, would it be more deserving to qualify by merit (against strong teams) rather than the current 3 places for 4 teams, win one match and you are through, normally it has always been Warwickshire, GMan, Staffordshire qualifying, with the odd time Shropshire getting through

But it still leaves most of the other NCCU counties `out in the cold`...with no interest whatsoever in entering

That is there own choice

And yes, for you hopping over the garden fence to play in Bradford (West Yorkshire..) is, no doubt, very convenient.....fair game I suppose.

This is my choice to play more competitve games against a different pool of players, I do this to improve my game and not for convenience

And 3Cs I guess have put there focus on other things...major tournaments....4NCL, etc....

Yes, as a club we have realized there are better opportunities out there to improve our players, that is why as a club we have become so strong, we think of the long-term future, can you name other clubs throughout Manchester which have took this approach?

I think this discussion should be moved away from ECF membership into an County Eligibility/County Chess category really

[David Pardoe]

Alan,
You mentioned joining the NCCU ...we`ve tried that.... any constructive suggestions I`m sure would be welcome....
You mentioned the NCCU organised Congresses...there are a fair number in the MCCU as well...all organised and run by dedicated Congress Organisors with support from various hard working volunteers.
Problem is GMan is bang in the middle of both zones (which means lots of Congress choice)....but its another area where more new blood and support from local players would be welcome...... I think the recent Bolton Congress had lower numbers due partly to the good Easter weather.....
Maybe 3Cs will consider entering a team in our Northern 4NCL league....that would be good. More support and new entries from northern teams/groups/leagues would be welcome, and help build on its first season. Its a quality northern event which I believe merits good support. The Finals w/e this weekend at Hinckley should be quite an occasion.

[Mick Norris]

BTW they didn't default boards because the lack of players, it was due to one whole car load being stuck in motorway traffic for over 2 hours, and thus had to turn around, using that to make the point you made isn't relevant, though you point is accurate about not having a big enough pool to pull from

We had a weak squad v Warks because of the clash with Scarborough, we struggled to get 16 players of any strength and then a car load failed to negotiate the M6 gambit

The M6 is key to the MCCU matches for G Man, as it is significantly more congested on Saturdays than it was 10 or 20 years ago (and nothing Dave, Alex or anyone else can do to help that)

We couldn't raise 16 v Staffs due to the clash with Preston weekend congress, so yes the pool is too small

We either need to find a way to widen the pool, or drop the Open team

[Alex Holowczak]

BTW they didn't default boards because the lack of players, it was due to one whole car load being stuck in motorway traffic for over 2 hours, and thus had to turn around, using that to make the point you made isn't relevant, though you point is accurate about not having a big enough pool to pull from

I accept that. I was just referring to the defaulted boards as a way of identifying the particular match, because I couldn't be bothered to look up who were playing.

We either need to find a way to widen the pool, or drop the Open team

To widen the pool, maybe you could bus in superstars who have potentially spurious claims to play for Manchester?

[Mick Norris]

We either need to find a way to widen the pool, or drop the Open team

To widen the pool, maybe you could bus in superstars who have potentially spurious claims to play for Manchester?

If we find people who actually want to play Open county chess but their own county doesn't have a team, that might mean we find a way to accommodate them - we are particularly interested in players with a bus

[Richard Thursby]

we are particularly interested in players with a bus

Things don't seem to change: The following is on the SCCU Ragbag page (posting date circa 1999) http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/rag.htm

"'X is a very strong player, because he drives.' - a County match captain"