Mr Barden's Guardian Article

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Mr Barden's Guardian Article

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:46 am

It was a mistake by Leonard, but at least it was an understandable one. The vast majority of players in the first team are still South Wales Dragons players; and he might have remembered West is Best as an independent team more readily if they ever made it to the first division in their own right. Although the name of the merged teams is obviously up to the teams themselves, and no one else, it is still unprecedented for the less successful, and less established, team to have the whole outfit named entirely after itself.

Leonard Barden
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Re: Mr Barden's Guardian Article

Post by Leonard Barden » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:51 am

The small needed amendments to my last two articles will be made early next week when my sub-editor (who technically has to do it) returns from his weekend break.

NickFaulks
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Re: Mr Barden's Guardian Article

Post by NickFaulks » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:00 pm

Leonard Barden wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:51 am
when my sub-editor (who technically has to do it) returns from his weekend break.
It's nice to hear that your paper can still afford sub-editors. The Telegraph has got rid of theirs, and you certainly know it.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Mr Barden's Guardian Article

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:10 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:46 am
Although the name of the merged teams is obviously up to the teams themselves, and no one else, it is still unprecedented for the less successful, and less established, team to have the whole outfit named entirely after itself.
Wasn't it also something to do with the long standing manager of South West Dragons wanting to stand down? In those circumstances we've seen the divisional place handed over to a successor squad and renamed.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Mr Barden's Guardian Article

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:21 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:10 pm
Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:46 am
Although the name of the merged teams is obviously up to the teams themselves, and no one else, it is still unprecedented for the less successful, and less established, team to have the whole outfit named entirely after itself.
Wasn't it also something to do with the long standing manager of South West Dragons wanting to stand down? In those circumstances we've seen the divisional place handed over to a successor squad and renamed.
Not really worth discussion, but I am sure I could distinguish any example you might care to give.

MatthewParry
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Re: Mr Barden's Guardian Article

Post by MatthewParry » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:42 pm

Leonard Barden wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:51 am
The small needed amendments to my last two articles will be made early next week when my sub-editor (who technically has to do it) returns from his weekend break.
Many thanks, Leonard. While, as it has been pointed out by some of our colleagues, it may not be a big deal, I am grateful for acknowledging the issue.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Mr Barden's Guardian Article

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:06 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:21 pm
Not really worth discussion, but I am sure I could distinguish any example you might care to give.
Wasn't the squad which is now Blackthorne Russia previously Midland Monarchs? I don't think the Ledgers and the Hunts ever played under the Monarchs banner.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Mr Barden's Guardian Article

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:11 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:06 pm
Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:21 pm
Not really worth discussion, but I am sure I could distinguish any example you might care to give.
Wasn't the squad which is now Blackthorne Russia previously Midland Monarchs? I don't think the Ledgers and the Hunts ever played under the Monarchs banner.
When Lawrence Cooper stopped captaining Midland Monarchs at the end of 1999/2000, the team's spot in division one was taken over by Steve Ledger. They actually kept the same name for the first two seasons, and it was just abut the only connection there was between this quite new team and the team which had actually played in the previous season and earned the first division spot. No titled players remained. They all left for other teams (Harriet Hunt to White Rose, in the first instance). I believe the sole connecting player was .... Jon Naylor!

This was a pretty sorry moment for the then Board, and I like to think they would look for something more today. Admittedly you can argue about what makes a team "the same team" (number of players? identity of captain?) but no conceivable definition could have applied to this case.

This is quite different from the present merger, of course. For a start, West is Best did at least exist when it merged with Dragons, and in any event it has retained its players. Whereas, in 2000, Steve Ledger's team was just permitted to parachute a quite new team into division one from nowhere.

All this comes from the observation that I could understand Leonard's mistake about the Dragons continuing as the same team under a new name, since in a merger you wouldn't expect the lesser known team to be the one to impose its own name; but it doesn't really matter. In substance, the merger seems unobjectionable. But, in my view, what happened in 2000 did matter, at the time.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Mr Barden's Guardian Article

Post by LawrenceCooper » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:56 am

Roger de Coverly wrote: I don't think the Ledgers and the Hunts ever played under the Monarchs banner.
Andrew Ledger and Harriet Hunt were both in the original Midland Monarchs team run by Roy Woodcock and Robert McFarland and continued to play when I took over the team.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Mr Barden's Guardian Article

Post by LawrenceCooper » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:59 am

Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:11 pm
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:06 pm
Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:21 pm
Not really worth discussion, but I am sure I could distinguish any example you might care to give.
Wasn't the squad which is now Blackthorne Russia previously Midland Monarchs? I don't think the Ledgers and the Hunts ever played under the Monarchs banner.
When Lawrence Cooper stopped captaining Midland Monarchs at the end of 1999/2000, the team's spot in division one was taken over by Steve Ledger. They actually kept the same name for the first two seasons, and it was just abut the only connection there was between this quite new team and the team which had actually played in the previous season and earned the first division spot. No titled players remained. They all left for other teams (Harriet Hunt to White Rose, in the first instance). I believe the sole connecting player was .... Jon Naylor!
Without checking I'm fairly sure that Andrew Ledger was titled and he was part of both the old and new team. I also though that Jonathan Nelson had played for both teams but I'm sure you'll double check and correct me if that wasn't the case.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Mr Barden's Guardian Article

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:06 am

"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Richard Bates
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Re: Mr Barden's Guardian Article

Post by Richard Bates » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:21 am

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:59 am
Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:11 pm
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:06 pm


Wasn't the squad which is now Blackthorne Russia previously Midland Monarchs? I don't think the Ledgers and the Hunts ever played under the Monarchs banner.
When Lawrence Cooper stopped captaining Midland Monarchs at the end of 1999/2000, the team's spot in division one was taken over by Steve Ledger. They actually kept the same name for the first two seasons, and it was just abut the only connection there was between this quite new team and the team which had actually played in the previous season and earned the first division spot. No titled players remained. They all left for other teams (Harriet Hunt to White Rose, in the first instance). I believe the sole connecting player was .... Jon Naylor!
Without checking I'm fairly sure that Andrew Ledger was titled and he was part of both the old and new team. I also though that Jonathan Nelson had played for both teams but I'm sure you'll double check and correct me if that wasn't the case.
http://www.olimpbase.org/playersuk/kyqquwie.html

http://www.olimpbase.org/playersuk/666igoyg.html

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Mr Barden's Guardian Article

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:11 pm

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:59 am
Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:11 pm
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:06 pm


Wasn't the squad which is now Blackthorne Russia previously Midland Monarchs? I don't think the Ledgers and the Hunts ever played under the Monarchs banner.
When Lawrence Cooper stopped captaining Midland Monarchs at the end of 1999/2000, the team's spot in division one was taken over by Steve Ledger. They actually kept the same name for the first two seasons, and it was just abut the only connection there was between this quite new team and the team which had actually played in the previous season and earned the first division spot. No titled players remained. They all left for other teams (Harriet Hunt to White Rose, in the first instance). I believe the sole connecting player was .... Jon Naylor!
Without checking I'm fairly sure that Andrew Ledger was titled and he was part of both the old and new team. I also though that Jonathan Nelson had played for both teams but I'm sure you'll double check and correct me if that wasn't the case.

No need to double check. I remember Andrew Ledger leaving Monarchs for Invicta Knights at the start of the 1997/8 season.

Not that it immediately did him or his team, much good. In his first weeknd for Invicta Knights, he played and lost to the Monarchs (he lost to Matthew Turner, I believe), as did his under-strength team. And indeed that turned out to decide the League. High Ercalll, we shall never forget you :lol:

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Mr Barden's Guardian Article

Post by LawrenceCooper » Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:27 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:11 pm
High Ercalll, we shall never forget you :lol:
Ah yes, the nearest the 4NCL came to blindfold chess :D

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Mr Barden's Guardian Article

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:53 pm

Now I think about it, Andrew Ledger must have left the Monarchs even earlier: I remember him playing for Northumbria Vikings in 1996/7, just before he joined Invicta. Seems that he left the team just before its finest moments!

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