Division Four (South) 2017-18

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
Ken Norman
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Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:07 pm

Re: Division Four (South) 2017-18

Post by Ken Norman » Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:24 am

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:55 pm
Looks like three teams (Surbiton, CSC2 and Iceni 1) promoted out of Division 4S with four (Anglian Avengers 2, The Full Ponty, Hackney, West is Best 3) being relegated from Division3S. Also one definite new team, Watford 2, for 2018-19.
Four teams relegated from division three but only three promoted from Division Four South.

Does that mean the 4NCL is reducing the size of Division three?

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Division Four (South) 2017-18

Post by LawrenceCooper » Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:50 am

Ken Norman wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:24 am
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:55 pm
Looks like three teams (Surbiton, CSC2 and Iceni 1) promoted out of Division 4S with four (Anglian Avengers 2, The Full Ponty, Hackney, West is Best 3) being relegated from Division3S. Also one definite new team, Watford 2, for 2018-19.
Four teams relegated from division three but only three promoted from Division Four South.

Does that mean the 4NCL is reducing the size of Division three?
No. From rule 13.3

"four teams will be relegated from Division 2 (and may choose to enter either Division 3 North or Division 3 South), and two teams will be promoted from each of Division 3 South and Division 3 North. Teams relegated from Division 2 must state their preference for Division 3 North or South within four weeks of the final weekend. The number of teams promoted from Division 4 South to Division 3 South will depend on the number of teams relegated from Division 2 choosing to enter Division 3 South."

Nick Burrows
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Re: Division Four (South) 2017-18

Post by Nick Burrows » Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:52 pm

I notice on the 4ncl page that Div 4 South has a whopping 40 teams listed for the coming season! Is it time for a Div 5?

In other news, Brown Jack appear to have changed their name to "Check Inmates" :oops:

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Division Four (South) 2017-18

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:22 pm

Nick Burrows wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:52 pm
In other news, Brown Jack appear to have changed their name to "Check Inmates" :oops:
The local club lost the use of their venue, the Brown Jack pub.

They have moved to the Check Inn
http://www.wiltshirechess.org.uk/checkinn.html

Nick Burrows
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Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:15 pm

Re: Division Four (South) 2017-18

Post by Nick Burrows » Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:47 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:22 pm
Nick Burrows wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:52 pm
In other news, Brown Jack appear to have changed their name to "Check Inmates" :oops:
The local club lost the use of their venue, the Brown Jack pub.

They have moved to the Check Inn
http://www.wiltshirechess.org.uk/checkinn.html
Thats ok then, I thought it was just a random chess pun

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Division Four (South) 2017-18

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:02 pm

Nick Burrows wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:52 pm
I notice on the 4ncl page that Div 4 South has a whopping 40 teams listed for the coming season! Is it time for a Div 5?
Snag with this is that ambitious southern teams might be tempted to join Division 3 (North) rather than Division 5 (South) as a quicker route to Division 2. More likely, I'd think, is the sub-division into Division 4 (South-east) and Division 4 (South-west). Obviously not this season but next, or the one after that, and it would have the attraction of reducing travel for many southern teams.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Division Four (South) 2017-18

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:28 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:02 pm
More likely, I'd think, is the sub-division into Division 4 (South-east) and Division 4 (South-west).
Or perhaps South and Midlands.

Roger Lancaster
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Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:44 pm

Re: Division Four (South) 2017-18

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:35 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:28 pm
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:02 pm
More likely, I'd think, is the sub-division into Division 4 (South-east) and Division 4 (South-west).
Or perhaps South and Midlands.
Perhaps, yes, although my best bet would be one divisional venue at Wokefield Park (whenever available, or somewhere close) and the other at Daventry, Solihull or another hotel broadly in that area. If that were the case, I suppose it matters little whether they were called South-west and South-east or, alternatively, South and Midlands. But my main thrust was that I don't see a Division 5, as such, happening any time soon.

Nick Burrows
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Re: Division Four (South) 2017-18

Post by Nick Burrows » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:36 pm

Or just let new teams join Div 3 North if they choose...If they are serious enough to travel further..and get promoted..i think they deserve it!

J T Melsom
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Re: Division Four (South) 2017-18

Post by J T Melsom » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:58 pm

Of course in a sense the business model of 4NCL relies in part on the venues not being commutable. Any attempt to reduce travel times might in that sense be counter-productive.

I do think that there is arguably a bit too much variety of playing strength in Division 4. I had a much weaker field of opponents this year in a mid to lower half of the table side than when challenging for promotion the previous year. The quality of likely opposition is having an impact on my commitment to 4NCL this season, as well as the change of venue. I'm already playing in too many other club fixtures where a score in excess of 70% is needed to maintain my still relatively modest grade.

Nick Burrows
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Re: Division Four (South) 2017-18

Post by Nick Burrows » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:08 pm

J T Melsom wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:58 pm

I do think that there is arguably a bit too much variety of playing strength in Division 4. I had a much weaker field of opponents this year in a mid to lower half of the table side than when challenging for promotion the previous year. The quality of likely opposition is having an impact on my commitment to 4NCL this season, as well as the change of venue. I'm already playing in too many other club fixtures where a score in excess of 70% is needed to maintain my still relatively modest grade.
Seconded. The first couple of rounds especially, until the swiss kicks in creates some mismatches that are very demotivating considering the time, travel and expenses incurred.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Division Four (South) 2017-18

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:26 pm

Nick Burrows wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:08 pm
The first couple of rounds especially, until the swiss kicks in creates some mismatches that are very demotivating considering the time, travel and expenses incurred.
They were attempting to postpone clashes between the leading teams, but perhaps it just has to accepted that in an 11 round Swiss of 40 competitors, the major clashes will take place shortly after the half way point when any competitors with 100% or near 100% scores have to face one another. Seeding orders are something of a guess anyway, given squad sizes.

I don't know whether team captains, players and arbiters would wear it, but you could postpone the round 1 pairings until the players for the day were announced. That way a top half v bottom half pairing could be done based on known team strengths. On the Sunday, use the rankings from Saturday's announced teams. After that just use the (complicated) method in the Olympiad where team ratings have less impact on the pairings.

Nick Burrows
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Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:15 pm

Re: Division Four (South) 2017-18

Post by Nick Burrows » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:10 pm

That seems like a good solution, especially since no preparation can be done in round 1 as the team makeups vary so much year to year.

Nick Grey
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Re: Division Four (South) 2017-18

Post by Nick Grey » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:38 pm

It is inevitable that more mismatches occur when teams from 2N/3N go back South to 4S.
It may be go back to a 3N/S swiss in late rounds to help.
The main issue to an individual is a default when there is a huge outlay on travel, food and a hotel bill rather than a mismatch which happens lots of times in the season anyway.

Lets put it this way I have no idea whether my opponent tomorrow is going to be about 170 or 120. As its a cup match & the only club not making nominations yet as their season is starting about 3 weeks later than other clubs.

J T Melsom
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Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:12 pm

Re: Division Four (South) 2017-18

Post by J T Melsom » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:48 pm

Sorry but I disagree that mismatches are not annoying. I have realised over recent seasons that playing weaker opposition tends to reinforce bad habits which are then hard to shake off when you play 4NCL where there is more thinking time, and one might hope for the standard to be higher. I've reduced my chess commitments this season because of the need to score a ridiculously high percentage in some competitions to stand still grade wise. And my upward progression will consequently run into another problem, not enough games so less familiarity with the positions that arise.

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