First Saturday Budapest August

 Posts: 2717
 Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:27 pm
First Saturday Budapest August
Harry Grieve appears to have qualified for his FM title
http://chessresults.com/tnr369711.aspx ... g=30&snr=7
http://chessresults.com/tnr369711.aspx ... g=30&snr=7
 Christopher Kreuzer
 Posts: 6962
 Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:34 am
 Location: London
Re: First Saturday Budapest August
Impressive 3/3 start. What score does he need for an IM norm? From the looks of the ratings, he would need quite a high score, something around 7 or more out of 9 (though it is an 11round tournament, so I think there is some flexibility there). I tried rereading the regulations, but got bogged down:
https://www.fide.com/fide/handbook.html ... ew=article
Which bit is relevant to the calculation here? I know how to calculate a TPR for a roundrobin tournament for a specific player, but how do you calculate the 9round, 10round and 11round norm requirements?
https://www.fide.com/fide/handbook.html ... ew=article
Which bit is relevant to the calculation here? I know how to calculate a TPR for a roundrobin tournament for a specific player, but how do you calculate the 9round, 10round and 11round norm requirements?
 Christopher Kreuzer
 Posts: 6962
 Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:34 am
 Location: London
Re: First Saturday Budapest August
I think I've worked it out now.
Given the order in which Harry Grieve plays the players in this 11round allplayall (he will have faced the required number of IMs by the end of round 9  there are four IMs in this tournament), the average rating of opponents faced is as follows:
 After 9 rounds: 2277  need 7/9 for an IM norm.
 After 10 rounds: 2268  need 7.5/10 for an IM norm.
 After 11 rounds: 2256  need 8.5/11 for an IM norm.
Remembering that: "for 10 rounds or more it is possible that deleting a game that has been won could be advantageous."
Though: "In the case of a tournament with predetermined pairings, the full requirements, other than score, must be met for the complete tournament." (Does that mean that 9round and 10round norms are not possible? Or does it just mean that the "discounting games" method is not valid? 1.42e and 1.42f)
Given the order in which Harry Grieve plays the players in this 11round allplayall (he will have faced the required number of IMs by the end of round 9  there are four IMs in this tournament), the average rating of opponents faced is as follows:
 After 9 rounds: 2277  need 7/9 for an IM norm.
 After 10 rounds: 2268  need 7.5/10 for an IM norm.
 After 11 rounds: 2256  need 8.5/11 for an IM norm.
Remembering that: "for 10 rounds or more it is possible that deleting a game that has been won could be advantageous."
Though: "In the case of a tournament with predetermined pairings, the full requirements, other than score, must be met for the complete tournament." (Does that mean that 9round and 10round norms are not possible? Or does it just mean that the "discounting games" method is not valid? 1.42e and 1.42f)

 Posts: 17225
 Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm
Re: First Saturday Budapest August
Isn't it necessary to play the entire tournament? If it wasn't, then a faked Norm becomes possible by submitting round by round results, not in the order played, but in the order that worked for Norms.Christopher Kreuzer wrote: ↑Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:02 pm
Though: "In the case of a tournament with predetermined pairings, the full requirements, other than score, must be met for the complete tournament." (Does that mean that 9round and 10round norms are not possible?

 Posts: 4389
 Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm
Re: First Saturday Budapest August
Like most forms of cheating, this trick has been seen. One very high profile IM tried it in a tournament he organised himself, but whatever small chance of success he may have had disappeared when he bragged on his personal website about how clever he'd been.Roger de Coverly wrote: ↑Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:28 pmIf it wasn't, then a faked Norm becomes possible by submitting round by round results, not in the order played, but in the order that worked for Norms.

 Posts: 17225
 Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm
Re: First Saturday Budapest August
I seem to think there was a case in the USA. But perhaps that's the one you mention.
 Christopher Kreuzer
 Posts: 6962
 Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:34 am
 Location: London
Re: First Saturday Budapest August
The posts by Roger and Nick are focusing on ways to go beyond the rules, but what I am asking is whether it is possible (the wording of the FIDE Handbook certainly implies it is possible) to play an entire tournament of more than 9 rounds and to then select 9 games from that tournament and submit it as a 9game norm? Do the 9 games have to be sequential? Obviously there are other restrictions, such as not dropping a game against one of the titled players if that is required for the norm, and so on. But is it possible in principle? I am sure I remember examples, but don't have them to hand. Can anyone provide examples of this? And what exactly is the difference for such norms between an 11round Swiss and an 11round APA?
PS. Harry Grieve now on 4/4!
PS. Harry Grieve now on 4/4!

 Posts: 4788
 Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:13 am
Re: First Saturday Budapest August
Here are the title regulations for you to read through:Christopher Kreuzer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:50 amThe posts by Roger and Nick are focusing on ways to go beyond the rules, but what I am asking is whether it is possible (the wording of the FIDE Handbook certainly implies it is possible) to play an entire tournament of more than 9 rounds and to then select 9 games from that tournament and submit it as a 9game norm? Do the 9 games have to be sequential? Obviously there are other restrictions, such as not dropping a game against one of the titled players if that is required for the norm, and so on. But is it possible in principle? I am sure I remember examples, but don't have them to hand. Can anyone provide examples of this? And what exactly is the difference for such norms between an 11round Swiss and an 11round APA?
PS. Harry Grieve now on 4/4!
https://www.fide.com/component/handbook ... ew=article
Two bits that you may find relevant:
1.42f A player may ignore his game(s) against any opponents he has defeated, provided he has met the required mix of opponents, and provided that this leaves him with at least the minimum number of games as in 1.41, against the required mix of opponents. Nonetheless, the full crosstable of the event must be submitted. In the case of a tournament with predetermined pairings, the full requirements, other than score, must be met for the complete tournament.
1.42g Tournaments that make changes to favour one or more players (for example by altering the number of rounds, or the order of rounds, or providing particular opponents, not otherwise participating in the event), shall be excluded.
 Christopher Kreuzer
 Posts: 6962
 Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:34 am
 Location: London
Re: First Saturday Budapest August
I linked to that page above and quoted from it already.
But am having trouble working out what this bit means: "In the case of a tournament with predetermined pairings, the full requirements, other than score, must be met for the complete tournament." Especially when read in conjunction with part 3 of 1.42e: "A player who has achieved a title result before the last round may ignore all games played subsequently, provided [...] (3) in the case of a tournament with predetermined pairings, the mix of opponents must be such that a norm is possible for the complete tournament."
Are they referring to the same thing? Or is it the same condition (that the tournament as a whole must still be normpossible) being applied to two distinct situations?
(1) Discounting the final rounds of a tournament if a norm has already been achieved.
(2) Discounting specific won games from anywhere in the tournament to help make the norm calculations work.
I presume (2) is used in the case of tournaments of more than 9 rounds where you meet two (or more) lowrated players and beat one of them and discounting that victory helps boost the average rating (the other one can be boosted to the rating floor, but you can only do that once, as per 1.46c). What is not clear is whether discounting a won game can be done only once  oh, actually "any opponents" makes clear you can do this more than once. I think that is all clear now.
(And in an APA that meets norm requirements, you are unlikely to need to discount won games. It is possible that the regulations are saying you cannot do this, but it doesn't seem 100% clear. What is clear from 1.42e part 3 is that you can discount the final rounds of an APA, obviously one that is more than 9 rounds.)
EDIT: Tempting fate, but I think I am right that Harry Grieve will go above 2400 if he keeps winning?
But am having trouble working out what this bit means: "In the case of a tournament with predetermined pairings, the full requirements, other than score, must be met for the complete tournament." Especially when read in conjunction with part 3 of 1.42e: "A player who has achieved a title result before the last round may ignore all games played subsequently, provided [...] (3) in the case of a tournament with predetermined pairings, the mix of opponents must be such that a norm is possible for the complete tournament."
Are they referring to the same thing? Or is it the same condition (that the tournament as a whole must still be normpossible) being applied to two distinct situations?
(1) Discounting the final rounds of a tournament if a norm has already been achieved.
(2) Discounting specific won games from anywhere in the tournament to help make the norm calculations work.
I presume (2) is used in the case of tournaments of more than 9 rounds where you meet two (or more) lowrated players and beat one of them and discounting that victory helps boost the average rating (the other one can be boosted to the rating floor, but you can only do that once, as per 1.46c). What is not clear is whether discounting a won game can be done only once  oh, actually "any opponents" makes clear you can do this more than once. I think that is all clear now.
(And in an APA that meets norm requirements, you are unlikely to need to discount won games. It is possible that the regulations are saying you cannot do this, but it doesn't seem 100% clear. What is clear from 1.42e part 3 is that you can discount the final rounds of an APA, obviously one that is more than 9 rounds.)
EDIT: Tempting fate, but I think I am right that Harry Grieve will go above 2400 if he keeps winning?
 Christopher Kreuzer
 Posts: 6962
 Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:34 am
 Location: London
Re: First Saturday Budapest August
Oh dear. Fate duly tempted. 4/5. Better not make any more predictions!