First Saturday Budapest August

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Richard Bates
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First Saturday Budapest August

Post by Richard Bates » Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:53 pm

Harry Grieve appears to have qualified for his FM title

http://chess-results.com/tnr369711.aspx ... g=30&snr=7

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: First Saturday Budapest August

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:02 pm

Impressive 3/3 start. What score does he need for an IM norm? From the looks of the ratings, he would need quite a high score, something around 7 or more out of 9 (though it is an 11-round tournament, so I think there is some flexibility there). I tried re-reading the regulations, but got bogged down:

https://www.fide.com/fide/handbook.html ... ew=article

Which bit is relevant to the calculation here? I know how to calculate a TPR for a round-robin tournament for a specific player, but how do you calculate the 9-round, 10-round and 11-round norm requirements?

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: First Saturday Budapest August

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:02 pm

I think I've worked it out now.

Given the order in which Harry Grieve plays the players in this 11-round all-play-all (he will have faced the required number of IMs by the end of round 9 - there are four IMs in this tournament), the average rating of opponents faced is as follows:

- After 9 rounds: 2277 - need 7/9 for an IM norm.
- After 10 rounds: 2268 - need 7.5/10 for an IM norm.
- After 11 rounds: 2256 - need 8.5/11 for an IM norm.

Remembering that: "for 10 rounds or more it is possible that deleting a game that has been won could be advantageous."

Though: "In the case of a tournament with pre-determined pairings, the full requirements, other than score, must be met for the complete tournament." (Does that mean that 9-round and 10-round norms are not possible? Or does it just mean that the "discounting games" method is not valid? 1.42e and 1.42f)

Roger de Coverly
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Re: First Saturday Budapest August

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:28 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:02 pm

Though: "In the case of a tournament with pre-determined pairings, the full requirements, other than score, must be met for the complete tournament." (Does that mean that 9-round and 10-round norms are not possible?
Isn't it necessary to play the entire tournament? If it wasn't, then a faked Norm becomes possible by submitting round by round results, not in the order played, but in the order that worked for Norms.

NickFaulks
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Re: First Saturday Budapest August

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:42 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:28 pm
If it wasn't, then a faked Norm becomes possible by submitting round by round results, not in the order played, but in the order that worked for Norms.
Like most forms of cheating, this trick has been seen. One very high profile IM tried it in a tournament he organised himself, but whatever small chance of success he may have had disappeared when he bragged on his personal website about how clever he'd been.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: First Saturday Budapest August

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:44 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:42 pm
Like most forms of cheating, this trick has been seen.
I seem to think there was a case in the USA. But perhaps that's the one you mention.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: First Saturday Budapest August

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:50 am

The posts by Roger and Nick are focusing on ways to go beyond the rules, but what I am asking is whether it is possible (the wording of the FIDE Handbook certainly implies it is possible) to play an entire tournament of more than 9 rounds and to then select 9 games from that tournament and submit it as a 9-game norm? Do the 9 games have to be sequential? Obviously there are other restrictions, such as not dropping a game against one of the titled players if that is required for the norm, and so on. But is it possible in principle? I am sure I remember examples, but don't have them to hand. Can anyone provide examples of this? And what exactly is the difference for such norms between an 11-round Swiss and an 11-round APA?

PS. Harry Grieve now on 4/4!

LawrenceCooper
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Re: First Saturday Budapest August

Post by LawrenceCooper » Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:44 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:50 am
The posts by Roger and Nick are focusing on ways to go beyond the rules, but what I am asking is whether it is possible (the wording of the FIDE Handbook certainly implies it is possible) to play an entire tournament of more than 9 rounds and to then select 9 games from that tournament and submit it as a 9-game norm? Do the 9 games have to be sequential? Obviously there are other restrictions, such as not dropping a game against one of the titled players if that is required for the norm, and so on. But is it possible in principle? I am sure I remember examples, but don't have them to hand. Can anyone provide examples of this? And what exactly is the difference for such norms between an 11-round Swiss and an 11-round APA?

PS. Harry Grieve now on 4/4!
Here are the title regulations for you to read through:

https://www.fide.com/component/handbook ... ew=article

Two bits that you may find relevant:

1.42f A player may ignore his game(s) against any opponents he has defeated, provided he has met the required mix of opponents, and provided that this leaves him with at least the minimum number of games as in 1.41, against the required mix of opponents. Nonetheless, the full cross-table of the event must be submitted. In the case of a tournament with pre-determined pairings, the full requirements, other than score, must be met for the complete tournament.
1.42g Tournaments that make changes to favour one or more players (for example by altering the number of rounds, or the order of rounds, or providing particular opponents, not otherwise participating in the event), shall be excluded.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: First Saturday Budapest August

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:59 pm

I linked to that page above and quoted from it already.

But am having trouble working out what this bit means: "In the case of a tournament with pre-determined pairings, the full requirements, other than score, must be met for the complete tournament." Especially when read in conjunction with part 3 of 1.42e: "A player who has achieved a title result before the last round may ignore all games played subsequently, provided [...] (3) in the case of a tournament with pre-determined pairings, the mix of opponents must be such that a norm is possible for the complete tournament."

Are they referring to the same thing? Or is it the same condition (that the tournament as a whole must still be norm-possible) being applied to two distinct situations?

(1) Discounting the final rounds of a tournament if a norm has already been achieved.
(2) Discounting specific won games from anywhere in the tournament to help make the norm calculations work.

I presume (2) is used in the case of tournaments of more than 9 rounds where you meet two (or more) low-rated players and beat one of them and discounting that victory helps boost the average rating (the other one can be boosted to the rating floor, but you can only do that once, as per 1.46c). What is not clear is whether discounting a won game can be done only once - oh, actually "any opponents" makes clear you can do this more than once. I think that is all clear now. :?

(And in an APA that meets norm requirements, you are unlikely to need to discount won games. It is possible that the regulations are saying you cannot do this, but it doesn't seem 100% clear. What is clear from 1.42e part 3 is that you can discount the final rounds of an APA, obviously one that is more than 9 rounds.)

EDIT: Tempting fate, but I think I am right that Harry Grieve will go above 2400 if he keeps winning? :!:

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: First Saturday Budapest August

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:35 pm

Oh dear. Fate duly tempted. 4/5. Better not make any more predictions!

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