EXCESSIVE FIDE CHARGES FOR JUNIORS

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Roger Lancaster
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EXCESSIVE FIDE CHARGES FOR JUNIORS

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:48 pm

Excerpt from recent Dvorkovich interview apropos junior events: ...we should reduce the fees charged by FIDE and FIDE-friendly organizers today. Kids and their parents are systematically overcharged for playing & lodging during the official competitions, and that should stop – it harms the popularity of our game and it damages FIDE's reputation".

It certainly does - parents have commented, adversely, at the costs incurred when their children are invited to play in major international events. Such events tend to be held in a handful of European or Eurasian countries, including several which one would not immediately associate with financial transparency, and it's normally a condition of entry that foreign competitors must stay in designated hotels which are consequently able to use their monopoly status in setting over-the-top charges. It's not exactly straining the imagination to believe that a percentage of the hotel charges - let's call it a commission - then finds its way into the pockets of certain individuals within FIDE. And that's before we get to the issue of overt FIDE fees ...

To clarify, I am not citing this as support for Arkady Dvorkovich's presidential campaign as I imagine that Nigel Short and Malcolm Pein could equally have expressed those sentiments.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: EXCESSIVE FIDE CHARGES FOR JUNIORS

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:52 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:48 pm
and it's normally a condition of entry that foreign competitors must stay in designated hotels which are consequently able to use their monopoly status in setting over-the-top charges.
Not just junior events either.

https://en.chessbase.com/post/turkish-c ... y-rubbish-

That was an event back in 2010.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: EXCESSIVE FIDE CHARGES FOR JUNIORS

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:44 am

Excessive charges have been a problem in many events in many countries. Didn't England offer to stage the European Team Championship some years ago, only to lose the event as many teams objected to the blatant profiteering relating to accommodation?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: EXCESSIVE FIDE CHARGES FOR JUNIORS

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:58 am

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:44 am
Didn't England offer to stage the European Team Championship some years ago, only to lose the event as many teams objected to the blatant profiteering relating to accommodation?
I'm not sure it was blatant profiteering, rather the expensive nature of some accommodation in Torquay. The British Championships have been in Torquay several times since without price concerns being expressed by the participants.

Perhaps it's the duration of the event that's the problem, but what level of price to participants would be needed if the hotels used for 4NCL weekends were deployed for an international individual or team event? Compared to many other countries, the base cost of hotels in the UK is much higher.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: EXCESSIVE FIDE CHARGES FOR JUNIORS

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:18 am

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:44 am
Excessive charges have been a problem in many events in many countries. Didn't England offer to stage the European Team Championship some years ago, only to lose the event as many teams objected to the blatant profiteering relating to accommodation?
From what has been told to me, no. For a start, it isn't a case of "offering to host", you had to formally bid. The bid failed because before even thinking about trying to profit from the accommodation, the accommodation costs were too high.

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Re: EXCESSIVE FIDE CHARGES FOR JUNIORS

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:22 am

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:48 pm
It certainly does - parents have commented, adversely, at the costs incurred when their children are invited to play in major international events.
It's a genuine question, that I intend to ask parents about if elected, how much of an issue this is. Specifically, putting aside the obvious kudos of playing for England, would it be thought more desirable (it will probably be cheaper) to send a team of children to a European open tournament of some sort, rather than a European or World Championship? The venues for the World events next year are quite distant (China, Tunisia). The other advantage of that approach would be that it could be done out of school time. But of course, I understand that people want the kudos of playing in a European/World junior event for their country.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: EXCESSIVE FIDE CHARGES FOR JUNIORS

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:25 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:18 am
The bid failed because before even thinking about trying to profit from the accommodation, the accommodation costs were too high.
I believe the award had gone ahead and organisers appointed. This was to take place in 1999, but when the BCF team showed up at the Elista Olympiad in 1998, they were told "Kirsan says no", apparently on the grounds that he had been lobbied about costs. This was before the ECU established greater autonomy within FIDE. I think the 1999 championship was awarded to Batumi.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: EXCESSIVE FIDE CHARGES FOR JUNIORS

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:21 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:22 am
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:48 pm
It certainly does - parents have commented, adversely, at the costs incurred when their children are invited to play in major international events.
It's a genuine question, that I intend to ask parents about if elected, how much of an issue this is. Specifically, putting aside the obvious kudos of playing for England, would it be thought more desirable (it will probably be cheaper) to send a team of children to a European open tournament of some sort, rather than a European or World Championship? The venues for the World events next year are quite distant (China, Tunisia). The other advantage of that approach would be that it could be done out of school time. But of course, I understand that people want the kudos of playing in a European/World junior event for their country.
Absolutely. Think about this. As related on this forum before, Paul Sanders decided some time ago to enter Isaac into competitive open events abroad at a fraction of the price he would have paid for entering him into Elo-rating death trap junior events. The kudos of playing for England is, to my mind, a quite marginal consideration and may well, in my view, tend more to be uppermost in the minds of parents who expect their children to stop playing shortly afterwards when other pressures intervene. We want our young players to improve, not so much to "have the kudos of playing for England".

Roger Lancaster
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Re: EXCESSIVE FIDE CHARGES FOR JUNIORS

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:15 pm

If one accepts (and most of us seem to agree with Dvorkovich on this point) the underlying premise that events such as the European Schools are unduly costly then, of course, one must ask why there is still demand to compete. The answer, very often, is not simply the kudos of playing for England but the fact that it adds something which may assist at a later stage of life. Let's be honest about this, most middle-class parents would far rather (even though they may not say so to their chess coaches) their children opted for a mainstream career such as accountancy, law or medicine - where "played chess for England" is simply a CV adornment - rather than became professional chess players. The children for whom these charges are a real deterrent are those of less well-off parents and, even in leafy Hertfordshire, they are not an extinct species.

At club level, I have been weighing up the feasibility of getting together a party of our juniors to take part in Gibraltar next year (although Brexit is an additional complication here) but, following up Alex's thinking, I appreciate there would be more prestige attached to being part of an "England" party rather than any club-organised venture. Btw, just one small travel note for Alex - direct flights from London to Tunis take only 3 hours which compares quite well with some of the more distant European/Eurasian venues.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: EXCESSIVE FIDE CHARGES FOR JUNIORS

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:59 pm

"From what has been told to me, no. For a start, it isn't a case of "offering to host", you had to formally bid. The bid failed because before even thinking about trying to profit from the accommodation, the accommodation costs were too high."


What Roger said. To be fair, Alex wasn't involved then! I think your informants might have (accidentally of course) misled you. BCF announced the hotel costs at a meeting and one of the delegates said he had telephoned one of the hotels and been quoted less than half the price. An English arbiter allegedly was charging £10000 to run the event.

Mick Norris
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Re: EXCESSIVE FIDE CHARGES FOR JUNIORS

Post by Mick Norris » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:04 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:59 pm
"From what has been told to me, no. For a start, it isn't a case of "offering to host", you had to formally bid. The bid failed because before even thinking about trying to profit from the accommodation, the accommodation costs were too high."


What Roger said. To be fair, Alex wasn't involved then! I think your informants might have (accidentally of course) misled you. BCF announced the hotel costs at a meeting and one of the delegates said he had telephoned one of the hotels and been quoted less than half the price. An English arbiter allegedly was charging £10000 to run the event.
That's expensive; pies are much cheaper in Wigan :lol:
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Roger Lancaster
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Re: EXCESSIVE FIDE CHARGES FOR JUNIORS

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:09 pm

"That's expensive; pies are much cheaper in Wigan"

Only while the badger cull lasts, I'm led to believe :D

Roger de Coverly
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Re: EXCESSIVE FIDE CHARGES FOR JUNIORS

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:25 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:59 pm
An English arbiter allegedly was charging £10000 to run the event.
Whether that would have been his personal fee or an all in budget for controllers and arbiters is perhaps lost in time.

In any event, the episode mostly discouraged the BCF or ECF from attempting to repeat the experience with a similar event. I can just think of three. There was a one off Senior Team Championship in the Isle of Man, the Hastings non-Masters became the World Amateur for a year or two and the 2004 Scarborough Major Open became the World Major Open. In all three cases it was getting a FIDE official status for events that would likely or certainly have taken place anyway.

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